From ereyes at totalcreations.com  Tue Feb  5 12:57:42 2013
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com (Edgar Reyes)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 12:57:42 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.
Message-ID: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>

I have a question that maybe some of you can shed some light or what your
experience with this might be or how you guys handle it. I was contacted by
a potential client that wants me to create a custom program for him, I said
not a problem, my company usually reserves all the rights an any an all
programs that we create, this particular client want to own the rights to
the program, I'm a bit hesitant as I like to keep the right to programs I
create in case I get a client that wants something similar and I just need
to modify some aspects of it making the development easier and if I get a
client that ones the exact program then I can sale it to them, how do you
guys think its the best way to go about doing this?

 

ER

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From leamhall at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 13:11:46 2013
From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 13:11:46 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.
In-Reply-To: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
References: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
Message-ID: <CACv9p5pKU+VPs2b=p5nt=zEEuVsX90D0tUuhYkV9U6pRgO=Umg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com>wrote:

>  I have a question that maybe some of you can shed some light or what
> your experience with this might be or how you guys handle it. I was
> contacted by a potential client that wants me to create a custom program
> for him, I said not a problem, my company usually reserves all the rights
> an any an all programs that we create, this particular client want to own
> the rights to the program, I?m a bit hesitant as I like to keep the right
> to programs I create in case I get a client that wants something similar
> and I just need to modify some aspects of it making the development easier
> and if I get a client that ones the exact program then I can sale it to
> them, how do you guys think its the best way to go about doing this?****
>
> ** **
>
> ER****
>
>
Photographers like my wife provide two prices; a much higher rate if the
client gets all rights to the work. Give them the offer, and let them know
that you don't share information on business details with competitors. The
code blocks will likely only be 10% or so unique, won't they?

-- 
Mind on a Mission <http://leamhall.blogspot.com/>
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From eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 13:17:40 2013
From: eugenio.tacchini at gmail.com (Eugenio Tacchini)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 19:17:40 +0100
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.
In-Reply-To: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
References: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
Message-ID: <CACus1SzZpLdt3iLuSOw8TQ09ZJSdvDOp1Nvo9euh17MaLxyojw@mail.gmail.com>

2013/2/5 Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com>

>  I have a question that maybe some of you can shed some light or what
> your experience with this might be or how you guys handle it. I was
> contacted by a potential client that wants me to create a custom program
> for him, I said not a problem, my company usually reserves all the rights
> an any an all programs that we create, this particular client want to own
> the rights to the program, I?m a bit hesitant as I like to keep the right
> to programs I create in case I get a client that wants something similar
> and I just need to modify some aspects of it making the development easier
> and if I get a client that ones the exact program then I can sale it to
> them, how do you guys think its the best way to go about doing this?****
>
> **
>

Hi,
how about sharing the copyright? I'm not sure about legal consequences but
maybe you can further investigate.


-- 
Dr. Eugenio Tacchini, Ph.D.

*Freelance Software Analyst and Developer, Milan Area, Italy*

*Lecturer of Information Systems, Catholic University of Piacenza, Italy*

*Researcher in Music Recommender Systems*

*DaDaBIK Database front-end http://dadabik.org*
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From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 14:33:37 2013
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 14:33:37 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.
In-Reply-To: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
References: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
Message-ID: <CAN7=Vv9mwPJAJ2=UCy3A_dyF2XLB+1pQLfBw-bHsFXnyQZKVrw@mail.gmail.com>

At the heart of this would be the question --  why do they want to own the
copyright? Is the software something that needs deals with securing their
systems so it needs to be kept secret or has something to do with a
proprietary process to their business? Do they have concerns that you would
do similar work for their competition? Could they have plans to market the
software you create for them? If that is the case, I can see them wanting
to own it.

Sometimes clients have misconceptions about copyright ownership and that it
implies some sort of control over something they may not need control over
at all.

David Roth


On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com>wrote:

>  I have a question that maybe some of you can shed some light or what
> your experience with this might be or how you guys handle it. I was
> contacted by a potential client that wants me to create a custom program
> for him, I said not a problem, my company usually reserves all the rights
> an any an all programs that we create, this particular client want to own
> the rights to the program, I?m a bit hesitant as I like to keep the right
> to programs I create in case I get a client that wants something similar
> and I just need to modify some aspects of it making the development easier
> and if I get a client that ones the exact program then I can sale it to
> them, how do you guys think its the best way to go about doing this?****
>
> ** **
>
> ER****
>
>
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From ereyes at totalcreations.com  Tue Feb  5 15:01:14 2013
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com (Edgar Reyes)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 15:01:14 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.
In-Reply-To: <CAN7=Vv9mwPJAJ2=UCy3A_dyF2XLB+1pQLfBw-bHsFXnyQZKVrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
	<CAN7=Vv9mwPJAJ2=UCy3A_dyF2XLB+1pQLfBw-bHsFXnyQZKVrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A7FB1F7C20C846CF863FF28A0CE7E2DC@MainTop>

>From the conversation we had it seemed as if he wanted to resale it or might
resale it in the future, he's argument was why am I going to pay all this
money for something I don't own, I told him ones I'm done it, will be yours
to use as you please you own that copy, but you cant resale copies to other
people / companies.

 

ER

 

  _____  

From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of David Roth
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:34 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.

 

At the heart of this would be the question --  why do they want to own the
copyright? Is the software something that needs deals with securing their
systems so it needs to be kept secret or has something to do with a
proprietary process to their business? Do they have concerns that you would
do similar work for their competition? Could they have plans to market the
software you create for them? If that is the case, I can see them wanting to
own it.

 

Sometimes clients have misconceptions about copyright ownership and that it
implies some sort of control over something they may not need control over
at all.

 

David Roth

 

 

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com>
wrote:

I have a question that maybe some of you can shed some light or what your
experience with this might be or how you guys handle it. I was contacted by
a potential client that wants me to create a custom program for him, I said
not a problem, my company usually reserves all the rights an any an all
programs that we create, this particular client want to own the rights to
the program, I'm a bit hesitant as I like to keep the right to programs I
create in case I get a client that wants something similar and I just need
to modify some aspects of it making the development easier and if I get a
client that ones the exact program then I can sale it to them, how do you
guys think its the best way to go about doing this?

 

ER

 

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From chuck.reeves at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 15:20:42 2013
From: chuck.reeves at gmail.com (Chuck Reeves)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 15:20:42 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.
In-Reply-To: <A7FB1F7C20C846CF863FF28A0CE7E2DC@MainTop>
References: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
	<CAN7=Vv9mwPJAJ2=UCy3A_dyF2XLB+1pQLfBw-bHsFXnyQZKVrw@mail.gmail.com>
	<A7FB1F7C20C846CF863FF28A0CE7E2DC@MainTop>
Message-ID: <CAGAdJeCQ+d3Jc-+cWn57Q6Qw69f1diFdU-52eBjgTrr_=aUQVA@mail.gmail.com>

You need to define what is owned.  Is it an algorithm that will help him
get a %2 return on stocks or is it just an eCommerce and he is talking
about owning the assets and have access to the code?

I normally tell my clients that there will be a copy of the code isolated
in my own environment to help speed development (its a pain when you have
to wait 3 days on a project to get started because you have to wait for ops
to set up a vhost).  I give them access to the repo on CVS so they can see
the code and have complete access to it at all times.



*Chuck Reeves*
President
631.374.0772
*MANCHUCK* | www.manchuck.com


On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com>wrote:

> **
>
> From the conversation we had it seemed as if he wanted to resale it or
> might resale it in the future, he?s argument was why am I going to pay all
> this money for something I don?t own, I told him ones I?m done it, will be
> yours to use as you please you own that copy, but you cant resale copies to
> other people / companies.****
>
> ** **
>
> ER****
>
> ** **
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
> *On Behalf Of *David Roth
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:34 PM
> *To:* **NYPHP Talk**
> *Subject:* Re: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.****
>
> ** **
>
> At the heart of this would be the question --  why do they want to own the
> copyright? Is the software something that needs deals with securing their
> systems so it needs to be kept secret or has something to do with a
> proprietary process to their business? Do they have concerns that you would
> do similar work for their competition? Could they have plans to market the
> software you create for them? If that is the case, I can see them wanting
> to own it.****
>
> ** **
>
> Sometimes clients have misconceptions about copyright ownership and that
> it implies some sort of control over something they may not need control
> over at all.****
>
> ** **
>
> David Roth****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com>
> wrote:****
>
> I have a question that maybe some of you can shed some light or what your
> experience with this might be or how you guys handle it. I was contacted by
> a potential client that wants me to create a custom program for him, I said
> not a problem, my company usually reserves all the rights an any an all
> programs that we create, this particular client want to own the rights to
> the program, I?m a bit hesitant as I like to keep the right to programs I
> create in case I get a client that wants something similar and I just need
> to modify some aspects of it making the development easier and if I get a
> client that ones the exact program then I can sale it to them, how do you
> guys think its the best way to go about doing this?****
>
>  ****
>
> ER****
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
>
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From rukbatsramblings at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 15:35:29 2013
From: rukbatsramblings at gmail.com (Rukbat)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 15:35:29 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.
In-Reply-To: <A7FB1F7C20C846CF863FF28A0CE7E2DC@MainTop>
References: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
	<CAN7=Vv9mwPJAJ2=UCy3A_dyF2XLB+1pQLfBw-bHsFXnyQZKVrw@mail.gmail.com>
	<A7FB1F7C20C846CF863FF28A0CE7E2DC@MainTop>
Message-ID: <51116D11.3000008@gmail.com>

My usually way of handling this sort of thing is to figure out how much 
I'll make by using it over and over, and charging the sole client that 
muc h.  So you offer him exclusive rights for X or right-to-use for 
X/100 (whatever you figure the two values are).  So does he want to pay 
$5,000 or $500,000?  If he thinks right-to-use is expensive, wait until 
he hears what exclusive right to sell software costs.  (Microsoft 
doesn't make $5,000 on a new version of Windows.  Use that as an example.)

I'd rather not do the job than give the work away for less than I think 
it's worth to me.

On 2/5/2013 3:01 PM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
>
> From the conversation we had it seemed as if he wanted to resale it or 
> might resale it in the future, he's argument was why am I going to pay 
> all this money for something I don't own, I told him ones I'm done it, 
> will be yours to use as you please you own that copy, but you cant 
> resale copies to other people / companies.
>
> ER
>
>

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From davidalanroth at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 16:02:21 2013
From: davidalanroth at gmail.com (David Roth)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:02:21 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.
In-Reply-To: <A7FB1F7C20C846CF863FF28A0CE7E2DC@MainTop>
References: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
	<CAN7=Vv9mwPJAJ2=UCy3A_dyF2XLB+1pQLfBw-bHsFXnyQZKVrw@mail.gmail.com>
	<A7FB1F7C20C846CF863FF28A0CE7E2DC@MainTop>
Message-ID: <CAN7=Vv9+-1UgTKiE4z5MwFjUOSPBgg4Y31v9P2GSjj0KWfDSZg@mail.gmail.com>

Not that it helps much, but his argument isn't valid. We all pay for
software we can't own or re-sell, but make full use of it. I think your
reasoning for keeping the copyright is very valid, because it would be a
pain in the neck to track and seek permission each time you wanted to base
a new project on an existing one, especially if you got turned down.

You could consider having a written agreement which gives him the option
(for a limited period of time like 2 years, after which you retain all
rights and control and it reverts to a non-exclusive license) to be able to
sell the software in return for perhaps a percentage of sales or an
additional fee. Or write the agreement where he does own the entire
copyright for a higher fee to start with. Kind of a pay me now or pay me
later agreement. Sometimes it's better to give clients a choice of things
so they can select what is most important to them. If he feels very
confident in his ability to sell this he may be able to justify the higher
fee to own it all. Or doesn't mind waiting to see how he does with selling
it and it cost him nothing extra until it starts to be sold.

It would also be a good idea talk with an attorney who specializes
in Intellectual Property which covers copyrights, patents, etc.


David Roth


On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com>wrote:

> **
>
> From the conversation we had it seemed as if he wanted to resale it or
> might resale it in the future, he?s argument was why am I going to pay all
> this money for something I don?t own, I told him ones I?m done it, will be
> yours to use as you please you own that copy, but you cant resale copies to
> other people / companies.****
>
> ** **
>
> ER****
>
> ** **
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
> *On Behalf Of *David Roth
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 05, 2013 2:34 PM
> *To:* **NYPHP Talk**
> *Subject:* Re: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.****
>
> ** **
>
> At the heart of this would be the question --  why do they want to own the
> copyright? Is the software something that needs deals with securing their
> systems so it needs to be kept secret or has something to do with a
> proprietary process to their business? Do they have concerns that you would
> do similar work for their competition? Could they have plans to market the
> software you create for them? If that is the case, I can see them wanting
> to own it.****
>
> ** **
>
> Sometimes clients have misconceptions about copyright ownership and that
> it implies some sort of control over something they may not need control
> over at all.****
>
> ** **
>
> David Roth****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com>
> wrote:****
>
> I have a question that maybe some of you can shed some light or what your
> experience with this might be or how you guys handle it. I was contacted by
> a potential client that wants me to create a custom program for him, I said
> not a problem, my company usually reserves all the rights an any an all
> programs that we create, this particular client want to own the rights to
> the program, I?m a bit hesitant as I like to keep the right to programs I
> create in case I get a client that wants something similar and I just need
> to modify some aspects of it making the development easier and if I get a
> client that ones the exact program then I can sale it to them, how do you
> guys think its the best way to go about doing this?****
>
>  ****
>
> ER****
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
>
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From chsnyder at gmail.com  Wed Feb  6 11:36:18 2013
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 11:36:18 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.
In-Reply-To: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
References: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
Message-ID: <CAPKKYS2Mat47qxE84KFW58ddiNqQC7B-708ZG8k_Q2v8o+BBfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com>wrote:

>  I like to keep the right to programs I create in case I get a client
> that wants something similar and I just need to modify some aspects of it
> making the development easier and if I get a client that ones the exact
> program then I can sale it to them, how do you guys think its the best way
> to go about doing this?
>


+1 for the two prices approach.

A good way to explain this to the client is that any program you write is
going to be made of bits and pieces of past client's programs in order to
save everyone time and money. As a bonus, they get code that has been
proven to work in the past. In return, they need to allow you to reuse any
non-proprietary code that you create while working for them.

Proprietary code needs to be written from scratch and isolated from other,
non-proprietary parts of the program, so it costs extra. How much extra
depends on how much of the final code it is.

It would be a very good practice for you to create and maintain a shared
library that is distinct from work written exclusively for one client or
another. Then it becomes really obvious who owns the copyright to what: you
own the copyright to the library code, and your client owns the copyright
to their program.

Also, +1 to lawyering up. That's another expense that gets passed on to
clients who are finicky about copyright issues.

Chris Snyder
http://chxor.chxo.com/
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From ereyes at totalcreations.com  Wed Feb  6 11:40:18 2013
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com (Edgar Reyes)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 11:40:18 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.
In-Reply-To: <CAPKKYS2Mat47qxE84KFW58ddiNqQC7B-708ZG8k_Q2v8o+BBfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A44D03D6C4CA454FB1E64235BC9E4412@MainTop>
	<CAPKKYS2Mat47qxE84KFW58ddiNqQC7B-708ZG8k_Q2v8o+BBfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <597BDA5F6E1F4FF3A34D36C52F745D56@MainTop>

Thanks to every one for their suggestions all very well taken and
appreciated.

 

ER

 

  _____  

From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Chris Snyder
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 11:36 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Programs rights and Lic etc.

 

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com>
wrote:

I like to keep the right to programs I create in case I get a client that
wants something similar and I just need to modify some aspects of it making
the development easier and if I get a client that ones the exact program
then I can sale it to them, how do you guys think its the best way to go
about doing this?

 

 

+1 for the two prices approach. 

 

A good way to explain this to the client is that any program you write is
going to be made of bits and pieces of past client's programs in order to
save everyone time and money. As a bonus, they get code that has been proven
to work in the past. In return, they need to allow you to reuse any
non-proprietary code that you create while working for them.

 

Proprietary code needs to be written from scratch and isolated from other,
non-proprietary parts of the program, so it costs extra. How much extra
depends on how much of the final code it is.

 

It would be a very good practice for you to create and maintain a shared
library that is distinct from work written exclusively for one client or
another. Then it becomes really obvious who owns the copyright to what: you
own the copyright to the library code, and your client owns the copyright to
their program.

 

Also, +1 to lawyering up. That's another expense that gets passed on to
clients who are finicky about copyright issues.

 

Chris Snyder

http://chxor.chxo.com/

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From brenttech at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 09:32:25 2013
From: brenttech at gmail.com (Brent Baisley)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 09:32:25 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com> <50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>
Message-ID: <7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>

Not too long ago I decided to sit down and quickly sample all the popular frameworks again (Symfony, Slim, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Yii). I didn't want to spend more than an hour getting each up and running and playing with it. Laravel was on that list and I was eager to try it since it was designed really with only PHP >=5.3 in mind. 

I never really got very far with it since it requires mcrypt to work even in it's most basic form. I did not have mcrypt installed, so that added time. It required DocumentRoot to be set and a writeable directory (storage/views) to work. A bit of extra work just to get a page up and ate into my self imposed 1 hour limit.
It largely (completely?) uses static class references, which I am not a big fan of. It is convenient since the static references are  easily accessible from anywhere. But it means you can't overload it and use your own classes without some difficulty. Like a lot of frameworks, you need to commit to it and the way it does things.

That said, Laravel is certainly a framework I would have on the short list of options. Symfony is also much better in v2 and they are taking a module approach. For example, Twig is now standalone.

On Jan 14, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Yitzchak Schaffer wrote:

> On 01/14/2013 05:52 AM, Peter Sawczynec wrote:
>> Can anyone offer me any thoughts, what you've heard,  background info or
>> real world experience with Laravel?
>> 
> 
> ExpandTheRoom (an agency in Manhattan) uses Laravel, from what I've heard.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation



From lester.bleong at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 10:09:09 2013
From: lester.bleong at gmail.com (Lester Leong)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 10:09:09 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com> <50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>
	<7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>

I've used a little bit of Cake in the past but now am using CodeCharge for
production development in my company. It's a bit tight and restrictive, but
extremely, extremely fast and well-suited for complicated reports and grids
(ie, CRM, lists, etc) and other back-end functionality.

With that said, I'm looking at new frameworks for my own personal
development work, but other than Cake, I have no clue about any of the new
ones out there. Can anyone provide a good rundown of the popular frameworks
out there - ie, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Kohana, and the other ones Brent
mentioned above - based on their experiences? Like pros, cons, etc.

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Brent Baisley <brenttech at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not too long ago I decided to sit down and quickly sample all the popular
> frameworks again (Symfony, Slim, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Yii). I didn't want
> to spend more than an hour getting each up and running and playing with it.
> Laravel was on that list and I was eager to try it since it was designed
> really with only PHP >=5.3 in mind.
>
> I never really got very far with it since it requires mcrypt to work even
> in it's most basic form. I did not have mcrypt installed, so that added
> time. It required DocumentRoot to be set and a writeable directory
> (storage/views) to work. A bit of extra work just to get a page up and ate
> into my self imposed 1 hour limit.
> It largely (completely?) uses static class references, which I am not a
> big fan of. It is convenient since the static references are  easily
> accessible from anywhere. But it means you can't overload it and use your
> own classes without some difficulty. Like a lot of frameworks, you need to
> commit to it and the way it does things.
>
> That said, Laravel is certainly a framework I would have on the short list
> of options. Symfony is also much better in v2 and they are taking a module
> approach. For example, Twig is now standalone.
>
> On Jan 14, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Yitzchak Schaffer wrote:
>
> > On 01/14/2013 05:52 AM, Peter Sawczynec wrote:
> >> Can anyone offer me any thoughts, what you've heard,  background info or
> >> real world experience with Laravel?
> >>
> >
> > ExpandTheRoom (an agency in Manhattan) uses Laravel, from what I've
> heard.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
>
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From rainelemental at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 10:33:46 2013
From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Rainelemental)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 10:33:46 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com> <50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>
	<7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
	<CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66D503C9-535C-45A3-8154-F6ED7284F52C@gmail.com>

Hi
since composer joined our toolkit and the php-fig standardized PSR things changed a lot, now frameworks are more such an ecosystem with different components that cooperate together.

With this in mind, feel free to choose any frameworks that are PSR compliant and you'll do right, or even better choose your components and build your own framework.


From my iPhone

On Feb 7, 2013, at 10:09 AM, Lester Leong <lester.bleong at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've used a little bit of Cake in the past but now am using CodeCharge for production development in my company. It's a bit tight and restrictive, but extremely, extremely fast and well-suited for complicated reports and grids (ie, CRM, lists, etc) and other back-end functionality.
> 
> With that said, I'm looking at new frameworks for my own personal development work, but other than Cake, I have no clue about any of the new ones out there. Can anyone provide a good rundown of the popular frameworks out there - ie, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Kohana, and the other ones Brent mentioned above - based on their experiences? Like pros, cons, etc.
> 
> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Brent Baisley <brenttech at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Not too long ago I decided to sit down and quickly sample all the popular frameworks again (Symfony, Slim, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Yii). I didn't want to spend more than an hour getting each up and running and playing with it. Laravel was on that list and I was eager to try it since it was designed really with only PHP >=5.3 in mind.
>> 
>> I never really got very far with it since it requires mcrypt to work even in it's most basic form. I did not have mcrypt installed, so that added time. It required DocumentRoot to be set and a writeable directory (storage/views) to work. A bit of extra work just to get a page up and ate into my self imposed 1 hour limit.
>> It largely (completely?) uses static class references, which I am not a big fan of. It is convenient since the static references are  easily accessible from anywhere. But it means you can't overload it and use your own classes without some difficulty. Like a lot of frameworks, you need to commit to it and the way it does things.
>> 
>> That said, Laravel is certainly a framework I would have on the short list of options. Symfony is also much better in v2 and they are taking a module approach. For example, Twig is now standalone.
>> 
>> On Jan 14, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Yitzchak Schaffer wrote:
>> 
>> > On 01/14/2013 05:52 AM, Peter Sawczynec wrote:
>> >> Can anyone offer me any thoughts, what you've heard,  background info or
>> >> real world experience with Laravel?
>> >>
>> >
>> > ExpandTheRoom (an agency in Manhattan) uses Laravel, from what I've heard.
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> >
>> > http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> 
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
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From krook at us.ibm.com  Thu Feb  7 10:42:13 2013
From: krook at us.ibm.com (Daniel Krook)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 10:42:13 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com>
	<50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>	<7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
	<CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>

Hello,

> From: Lester Leong <lester.bleong at gmail.com>
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Date: 02/07/2013 10:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
> Sent by: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
> 

snip

> 
> I'm looking at new frameworks for my own personal 
> development work, but other than Cake, I have no clue about any of 
> the new ones out there. Can anyone provide a good rundown of the 
> popular frameworks out there - ie, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Kohana, and
> the other ones Brent mentioned above - based on their experiences? 
> Like pros, cons, etc.

more snip


It sounds like we could use another "PHP framework shootout" panel or 
presentation, like we did a few years back. 

Volunteers for the April/May/June meeting? :)



Thanks,


Daniel Krook
Software Engineer, Advanced Cloud Solutions, GTS

IBM Senior Certified IT Specialist - L3 Thought Leader
The Open Group Certified IT Specialist - L3 Distinguished
Cloud, Java, PHP, BlackBerry, DB2 & Solaris Certified

  
http://krook.info/ 




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From rainelemental at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 12:19:03 2013
From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Rainelemental)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 12:19:03 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com> <50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>
	<7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
	<CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <5155B1A5-E17A-49DB-BF34-40F240C18602@gmail.com>

... I was saying, it could be interesting an overview of the top framework and their components.

From my iPhone

On Feb 7, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Daniel Krook <krook at us.ibm.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> > From: Lester Leong <lester.bleong at gmail.com> 
> > To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org> 
> > Date: 02/07/2013 10:11 AM 
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks 
> > Sent by: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org 
> > 
> 
> snip 
> 
> > 
> > I'm looking at new frameworks for my own personal 
> > development work, but other than Cake, I have no clue about any of 
> > the new ones out there. Can anyone provide a good rundown of the 
> > popular frameworks out there - ie, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Kohana, and
> > the other ones Brent mentioned above - based on their experiences? 
> > Like pros, cons, etc.
> 
> more snip 
> 
> 
> It sounds like we could use another "PHP framework shootout" panel or presentation, like we did a few years back. 
> 
> Volunteers for the April/May/June meeting? :) 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> 
> Daniel Krook
> Software Engineer, Advanced Cloud Solutions, GTS
> 
> IBM Senior Certified IT Specialist - L3 Thought Leader
> The Open Group Certified IT Specialist - L3 Distinguished
> Cloud, Java, PHP, BlackBerry, DB2 & Solaris Certified
> <mime-attachment.jpg> <mime-attachment.jpg> 
> http://krook.info/    	
> <mime-attachment.gif>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
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From rainelemental at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 12:15:19 2013
From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Rainelemental)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 12:15:19 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com> <50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>
	<7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
	<CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <C083F64E-C075-4130-9284-5ABC888F7599@gmail.com>

I'll help to organize space and talk, I'm examining few components for my job and for my personal project, it could be interesting to show 

From my iPhone

On Feb 7, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Daniel Krook <krook at us.ibm.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> > From: Lester Leong <lester.bleong at gmail.com> 
> > To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org> 
> > Date: 02/07/2013 10:11 AM 
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks 
> > Sent by: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org 
> > 
> 
> snip 
> 
> > 
> > I'm looking at new frameworks for my own personal 
> > development work, but other than Cake, I have no clue about any of 
> > the new ones out there. Can anyone provide a good rundown of the 
> > popular frameworks out there - ie, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Kohana, and
> > the other ones Brent mentioned above - based on their experiences? 
> > Like pros, cons, etc.
> 
> more snip 
> 
> 
> It sounds like we could use another "PHP framework shootout" panel or presentation, like we did a few years back. 
> 
> Volunteers for the April/May/June meeting? :) 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> 
> Daniel Krook
> Software Engineer, Advanced Cloud Solutions, GTS
> 
> IBM Senior Certified IT Specialist - L3 Thought Leader
> The Open Group Certified IT Specialist - L3 Distinguished
> Cloud, Java, PHP, BlackBerry, DB2 & Solaris Certified
> <mime-attachment.jpg> <mime-attachment.jpg> 
> http://krook.info/    	
> <mime-attachment.gif>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
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From rmarscher at beaffinitive.com  Thu Feb  7 12:58:26 2013
From: rmarscher at beaffinitive.com (Rob Marscher)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 12:58:26 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <C083F64E-C075-4130-9284-5ABC888F7599@gmail.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com> <50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>
	<7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
	<CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>
	<C083F64E-C075-4130-9284-5ABC888F7599@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAvg5U_PG+ZXavCiwsxtdko4wYHYneomkWQAQOoXEydiDGjbpQ@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe if one person runs the talk and serves as a sort of moderator, other
people who use the different frameworks could give a really brief
explanation of each and serve as the "expert" to answer questions.  I can
represent for the Lithium framework as I've been using it in production for
two years and contributed a bit to the project.

-Rob


On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Rainelemental <rainelemental at gmail.com>wrote:

> I'll help to organize space and talk, I'm examining few components for my
> job and for my personal project, it could be interesting to show
>
> From my iPhone
>
> On Feb 7, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Daniel Krook <krook at us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> > From: Lester Leong <lester.bleong at gmail.com>
> > To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Date: 02/07/2013 10:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
> > Sent by: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
> >
>
> snip
>
> >
> > I'm looking at new frameworks for my own personal
> > development work, but other than Cake, I have no clue about any of
> > the new ones out there. Can anyone provide a good rundown of the
> > popular frameworks out there - ie, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Kohana, and
> > the other ones Brent mentioned above - based on their experiences?
> > Like pros, cons, etc.
>
> more snip
>
>
> It sounds like we could use another "PHP framework shootout" panel or
> presentation, like we did a few years back.
>
> Volunteers for the April/May/June meeting? :)
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> *Daniel Krook*
> Software Engineer, Advanced Cloud Solutions, GTS
>
> IBM Senior Certified IT Specialist - L3 Thought Leader
> The Open Group Certified IT Specialist - L3 Distinguished
> Cloud, Java, PHP, BlackBerry, DB2 & Solaris Certified
>  ------------------------------
>  <mime-attachment.jpg> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/krook>
> <mime-attachment.jpg> <http://twitter.com/danielkrook> *
> **http://krook.info/* <http://krook.info/>
> <mime-attachment.gif>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
>
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From frankcefalu at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 13:04:31 2013
From: frankcefalu at gmail.com (Frank Cefalu)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 13:04:31 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com> <50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>
	<7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
	<CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <CAEG2a3uDswQhDt+BYu23os=GKxpk37pfcdUxc3c4n+PrMyR9eQ@mail.gmail.com>

Kohana is built upon Codeigniter, so sorta in the same bundle.

What are you looking to do? Expression engine is great since it is also
built on Code Igniter but gives you a CMS backend on top of it.

----
*Frank Cefalu*



On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Daniel Krook <krook at us.ibm.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> > From: Lester Leong <lester.bleong at gmail.com>
> > To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> > Date: 02/07/2013 10:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
> > Sent by: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
> >
>
> snip
>
> >
> > I'm looking at new frameworks for my own personal
> > development work, but other than Cake, I have no clue about any of
> > the new ones out there. Can anyone provide a good rundown of the
> > popular frameworks out there - ie, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Kohana, and
> > the other ones Brent mentioned above - based on their experiences?
> > Like pros, cons, etc.
>
> more snip
>
>
> It sounds like we could use another "PHP framework shootout" panel or
> presentation, like we did a few years back.
>
> Volunteers for the April/May/June meeting? :)
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> *Daniel Krook*
> Software Engineer, Advanced Cloud Solutions, GTS
>
> IBM Senior Certified IT Specialist - L3 Thought Leader
> The Open Group Certified IT Specialist - L3 Distinguished
> Cloud, Java, PHP, BlackBerry, DB2 & Solaris Certified
> ------------------------------
>  [image: LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/krook]<http://www.linkedin.com/in/krook>
>  [image: Twitter: http://twitter.com/danielkrook]<http://twitter.com/danielkrook>
> *
> **http://krook.info/* <http://krook.info/>
> [image: IBM]
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
>
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From rainelemental at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 13:30:46 2013
From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Rainelemental)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 13:30:46 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <CAEG2a3uDswQhDt+BYu23os=GKxpk37pfcdUxc3c4n+PrMyR9eQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com> <50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>
	<7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
	<CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>
	<CAEG2a3uDswQhDt+BYu23os=GKxpk37pfcdUxc3c4n+PrMyR9eQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <667FFBBD-3BC2-4001-A164-13F6BF51B024@gmail.com>

In Sailthru we wanted to organize tech talks, so we'll definitely have the space, let's talk next week.


From my iPhone

On Feb 7, 2013, at 1:04 PM, Frank Cefalu <frankcefalu at gmail.com> wrote:

> Kohana is built upon Codeigniter, so sorta in the same bundle.
> 
> What are you looking to do? Expression engine is great since it is also built on Code Igniter but gives you a CMS backend on top of it.
> ----
> Frank Cefalu
> 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Daniel Krook <krook at us.ibm.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> > From: Lester Leong <lester.bleong at gmail.com> 
>> > To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org> 
>> > Date: 02/07/2013 10:11 AM 
>> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks 
>> > Sent by: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org 
>> > 
>> 
>> snip 
>> 
>> > 
>> > I'm looking at new frameworks for my own personal 
>> > development work, but other than Cake, I have no clue about any of 
>> > the new ones out there. Can anyone provide a good rundown of the 
>> > popular frameworks out there - ie, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Kohana, and
>> > the other ones Brent mentioned above - based on their experiences? 
>> > Like pros, cons, etc.
>> 
>> more snip 
>> 
>> 
>> It sounds like we could use another "PHP framework shootout" panel or presentation, like we did a few years back. 
>> 
>> Volunteers for the April/May/June meeting? :) 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks, 
>> 
>> 
>> Daniel Krook
>> Software Engineer, Advanced Cloud Solutions, GTS
>> 
>> IBM Senior Certified IT Specialist - L3 Thought Leader
>> The Open Group Certified IT Specialist - L3 Distinguished
>> Cloud, Java, PHP, BlackBerry, DB2 & Solaris Certified
>> <mime-attachment.jpg> <mime-attachment.jpg> 
>> http://krook.info/    	
>> <mime-attachment.gif>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> 
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
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From brenttech at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 14:09:46 2013
From: brenttech at gmail.com (Brent Baisley)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:09:46 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <667FFBBD-3BC2-4001-A164-13F6BF51B024@gmail.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com> <50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>
	<7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
	<CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>
	<CAEG2a3uDswQhDt+BYu23os=GKxpk37pfcdUxc3c4n+PrMyR9eQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<667FFBBD-3BC2-4001-A164-13F6BF51B024@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B3F124AC-46FE-4E0A-9A4C-3C2630F9879A@gmail.com>

Not to one-up Sailthru, Shutterstock can also host a tech talk (with pizza and beer).  We use Slim and our own home grown minimalist framework Basecoat (open sourced).

On Feb 7, 2013, at 1:30 PM, Rainelemental wrote:

> In Sailthru we wanted to organize tech talks, so we'll definitely have the space, let's talk next week.
> 
> 
> From my iPhone
> 
> On Feb 7, 2013, at 1:04 PM, Frank Cefalu <frankcefalu at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Kohana is built upon Codeigniter, so sorta in the same bundle.
>> 
>> What are you looking to do? Expression engine is great since it is also built on Code Igniter but gives you a CMS backend on top of it.
>> ----
>> Frank Cefalu
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Daniel Krook <krook at us.ibm.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> > From: Lester Leong <lester.bleong at gmail.com> 
>> > To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org> 
>> > Date: 02/07/2013 10:11 AM 
>> > Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks 
>> > Sent by: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org 
>> > 
>> 
>> snip 
>> 
>> > 
>> > I'm looking at new frameworks for my own personal 
>> > development work, but other than Cake, I have no clue about any of 
>> > the new ones out there. Can anyone provide a good rundown of the 
>> > popular frameworks out there - ie, Laravel, CodeIgniter, Kohana, and
>> > the other ones Brent mentioned above - based on their experiences? 
>> > Like pros, cons, etc.
>> 
>> more snip 
>> 
>> 
>> It sounds like we could use another "PHP framework shootout" panel or presentation, like we did a few years back. 
>> 
>> Volunteers for the April/May/June meeting? :) 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks, 
>> 
>> 
>> Daniel Krook
>> Software Engineer, Advanced Cloud Solutions, GTS
>> 
>> IBM Senior Certified IT Specialist - L3 Thought Leader
>> The Open Group Certified IT Specialist - L3 Distinguished
>> Cloud, Java, PHP, BlackBerry, DB2 & Solaris Certified
>> <mime-attachment.jpg> <mime-attachment.jpg> 
>> http://krook.info/    	
>> <mime-attachment.gif>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> 
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> 
>> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation

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From krook at us.ibm.com  Thu Feb  7 15:04:52 2013
From: krook at us.ibm.com (Daniel Krook)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 15:04:52 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <B3F124AC-46FE-4E0A-9A4C-3C2630F9879A@gmail.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com>
	<50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>	<7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
	<CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>	<OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>
	<CAEG2a3uDswQhDt+BYu23os=GKxpk37pfcdUxc3c4n+PrMyR9eQ@mail.gmail.com>	<667FFBBD-3BC2-4001-A164-13F6BF51B024@gmail.com>
	<B3F124AC-46FE-4E0A-9A4C-3C2630F9879A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFEF7E3EC2.54A2D6A4-ON85257B0B.006D2944-85257B0B.006E4CDC@us.ibm.com>

Hi,

> From: Brent Baisley <brenttech at gmail.com>
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Date: 02/07/2013 02:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
> Sent by: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
> 
> Not to one-up Sailthru, Shutterstock can also host a tech talk (with
> pizza and beer).  We use Slim and our own home grown minimalist 
> framework Basecoat (open sourced).
> 
> On Feb 7, 2013, at 1:30 PM, Rainelemental wrote:
> 
> In Sailthru we wanted to organize tech talks, so we'll definitely 
> have the space, let's talk next week.


So we have the regular midtown space at IBM for most of the 4th Tuesday 
evenings of each month (including Mar 26, Apr 23, May 28, Jun 25). It 
seats 70.

The downside is we don't have refreshments at the meeting. Last time I was 
at Sailthru it was a little small, not sure if that's changed.

Regardless of location and date... Rainelemental did you want to take the 
lead as the moderator, and coordinate line up folks to describe/advocate 
individual frameworks? 

Sounds like we had experts in a few frameworks already....  Rob => 
Lithium, Frank => Kohana/Expression/CodeIgniter, Brent => Slim/Basecoat, 
Lester => CodeCharge




Thanks,


Daniel Krook
Software Engineer, Advanced Cloud Solutions, GTS

IBM Senior Certified IT Specialist - L3 Thought Leader
The Open Group Certified IT Specialist - L3 Distinguished
Cloud, Java, PHP, BlackBerry, DB2 & Solaris Certified

  
http://krook.info/ 


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From rainelemental at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 15:44:13 2013
From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 15:44:13 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <OFEF7E3EC2.54A2D6A4-ON85257B0B.006D2944-85257B0B.006E4CDC@us.ibm.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com> <50F45D31.2040509@gmx.com>
	<7CA8B087-51AA-4656-8853-86BBD19891F2@gmail.com>
	<CAAxweOSBWcBCwv-O_tnmCLbgmAtiqkkywnuLMpGJC5_x0WAyVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<OF02EC45B3.7ED0138B-ON85257B0B.00556067-85257B0B.005640EA@us.ibm.com>
	<CAEG2a3uDswQhDt+BYu23os=GKxpk37pfcdUxc3c4n+PrMyR9eQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<667FFBBD-3BC2-4001-A164-13F6BF51B024@gmail.com>
	<B3F124AC-46FE-4E0A-9A4C-3C2630F9879A@gmail.com>
	<OFEF7E3EC2.54A2D6A4-ON85257B0B.006D2944-85257B0B.006E4CDC@us.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <CAE1ELnJ35CPK6uRbCoW4v2wCta78FM++r=NBQ57pc+9YziO3Uw@mail.gmail.com>

Brant +1
Daniel +1, sure I'll be the moderator and Sailthru is changing a lot.
p.s. I'm on the flight to Sunshine PHP, so excited!
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From d at ingk.com  Thu Feb  7 16:44:01 2013
From: d at ingk.com (Damion Hankejh)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 16:44:01 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com>
Message-ID: <CAJ456zBeHm7csHt-7BK1tDdJr1ARaX1By_r69cjAr33kFOe1JQ@mail.gmail.com>

Has anyone else used QCodo ( qcodo.com ) ?
---
Damion Hankejh | ingk.com/d

On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Peter Sawczynec <ps at blu-studio.com> wrote:

> Good Day All: ****
>
> ** **
>
> Lately  I do a lot of Drupal and I may not be up on PHP frameworks anymore.
> ****
>
> Cake, Symfony, CodeIgniter. And a new one to me: Laravel.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> Can anyone offer me any thoughts, what you've heard,  background info or
> real world experience with Laravel? ****
>
> ** **
>
> Warmest regards, ****
>
>  ****
>
> Peter Sawczynec ****
>
> Technology Dir.****
>
> bl?studio ****
>
> 941.893.0396****
>
> ps at blu-studio.com <ps at sun-code.com> ****
>
> www.blu-studio.com
>
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From david at davidmintz.org  Wed Feb 13 09:39:27 2013
From: david at davidmintz.org (David Mintz)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 09:39:27 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <CAJ456zBeHm7csHt-7BK1tDdJr1ARaX1By_r69cjAr33kFOe1JQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com>
	<CAJ456zBeHm7csHt-7BK1tDdJr1ARaX1By_r69cjAr33kFOe1JQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAF+Sg4iSFhfmheog7QDLuG3vkbtM8Wr_xz4rP+hjamrN1P6vw@mail.gmail.com>

[snip]

Surely someone will stand up for Zend Framework 2, or no? I would like to
see somebody justify the mind-boggling complexity of it.


-- 
David Mintz
http://davidmintz.org/
Fight for social equality:
http://socialequality.com/
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From rainelemental at gmail.com  Thu Feb 14 01:09:55 2013
From: rainelemental at gmail.com (Federico Ulfo)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 01:09:55 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <CAAF+Sg4iSFhfmheog7QDLuG3vkbtM8Wr_xz4rP+hjamrN1P6vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com>
	<CAJ456zBeHm7csHt-7BK1tDdJr1ARaX1By_r69cjAr33kFOe1JQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAF+Sg4iSFhfmheog7QDLuG3vkbtM8Wr_xz4rP+hjamrN1P6vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE1ELnLXXH5RfoPusNdUPJSEW166BmTgPdW=BvjEPuLUTsNRZg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone, let's wrap things up: we have speakers and space, now we need
good arguments, such as success stories or new tools/frameworks.

Just wanted to add that I'm not interested in old frameworks just for the
sake of knowing them, unless there's a success story behind it. I'd
personally like to hear about current frameworks (Symfony2, ZF2, Laravel,
etc.), and mainstream methodology and tools (e.g. Composer). Let me know
what you guys think!


On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:39 AM, David Mintz <david at davidmintz.org> wrote:

> [snip]
>
> Surely someone will stand up for Zend Framework 2, or no? I would like to
> see somebody justify the mind-boggling complexity of it.
>
>
> --
> David Mintz
> http://davidmintz.org/
> Fight for social equality:
> http://socialequality.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
>
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From brenttech at gmail.com  Thu Feb 14 09:59:29 2013
From: brenttech at gmail.com (Brent Baisley)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:59:29 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] PHP Frameworks
In-Reply-To: <CAE1ELnLXXH5RfoPusNdUPJSEW166BmTgPdW=BvjEPuLUTsNRZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002d01cdf245$36f1bd90$a4d538b0$@com>
	<CAJ456zBeHm7csHt-7BK1tDdJr1ARaX1By_r69cjAr33kFOe1JQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAF+Sg4iSFhfmheog7QDLuG3vkbtM8Wr_xz4rP+hjamrN1P6vw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAE1ELnLXXH5RfoPusNdUPJSEW166BmTgPdW=BvjEPuLUTsNRZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8F832C80-14A7-4FB0-8489-7BE46C90CE9E@gmail.com>

Agreed. Personally I would like to see a cross section of frameworks and methods. Symfony2, ZF2, Laravel are all in the same "enterprise" category. It would be educational to have some microframeworks (i.e. Slim, Silex) for comparison. Perhaps even gong so far as to have frameworks that use push vs. pull (components) for the View layer, and url dispatch vs traversal for routing. Just to show different techniques.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application_framework


On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:09 AM, Federico Ulfo wrote:

> Hi everyone, let's wrap things up: we have speakers and space, now we need good arguments, such as success stories or new tools/frameworks. 
> 
> Just wanted to add that I'm not interested in old frameworks just for the sake of knowing them, unless there's a success story behind it. I'd personally like to hear about current frameworks (Symfony2, ZF2, Laravel, etc.), and mainstream methodology and tools (e.g. Composer). Let me know what you guys think!
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 9:39 AM, David Mintz <david at davidmintz.org> wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> Surely someone will stand up for Zend Framework 2, or no? I would like to see somebody justify the mind-boggling complexity of it.
> 
> 
> -- 
> David Mintz
> http://davidmintz.org/
> Fight for social equality:
> http://socialequality.com/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP User Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/show-participation

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From hans at cyberxdesigns.com  Sat Feb 16 21:49:26 2013
From: hans at cyberxdesigns.com (Hans C. Kaspersetz)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 21:49:26 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] MODX Meetup in NJ & Lena
Message-ID: <CD45AF66.24B82%hans@cyberxdesigns.com>

Good evening,

Recently MODX (http://modx.com/) launched a new Ambassador Program.  The
goal of the program is to grow the MODX community by empowering local
organizers to create groups and meet ups to discuss MODX.  I was invite to
be an Ambassador. So, as a friendly open source organizer and supporter I
accepted.

I have created a meetup group so that we can organize local meetings:
http://www.meetup.com/New-Jersey-MODX-Developers-Gather-Drink-Share-Be-Merry
/.  My goal is to run the meetings in Northern NJ.  I can also run meetings
in Manhattan, if there is enough desire.

Hans and Daniel, I would be happy to give a presentation on MODX to the
group, if it has been a while since one was delivered.  We are using MODX
for a broad spectrum of projects for start-ups through Fortune 500
companies.

For those of you that don't know, MODX is the best Open Source PHP Content
Management System and Framework around.  We have been using it for about 5
years and we love it.

/**  New topic  **/

As many of you know, my companies Cyber X Designs and Arteric sponsor open
source/tech events in and around NYC.  Recently, we sponsored the NY Tech
Holiday Party.

This year we are sponsoring http://www.leandayux.com/ which is happening on
March 1, 2013 downtown.  The 1 day conference is focused on implementing
lean startup and lean UX in the enterprise.  As a sponsor, they have asked
us to reach out to our network to raise awareness about the conference and
help drive ticket sales.  If you would like to attend, please contact me.
It may be possible to get discounted tickets.

I went to the conference last year and it was very good and a great value!

Warmest regards,
Hans

--- 
Hans C. Kaspersetz, President
Cyber X Designs  & Arteric

Office: 201-558-7929
http://www.cyberxdesigns.com
http://arteric.com
145 Rochelle Ave, Rochelle Park, NJ 07662


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From zaunere at gmail.com  Wed Feb 20 10:58:39 2013
From: zaunere at gmail.com (Hans Z)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 10:58:39 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] NYPHP Archives
Message-ID: <CACGAZnKpK1DHrC2qg9PSRbH7syoNzuCiZo7c5a8gz+oKoVTFnQ@mail.gmail.com>

... are back to being functional :)

http://www.nyphp.org/mailing-lists

Sorry for the hiccup,

H


From leamhall at gmail.com  Sun Feb 24 07:24:38 2013
From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 07:24:38 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Functions instantiating from Classes
Message-ID: <512A0686.2060904@gmail.com>

OOP Newbie question as I convert a crufty program to OOP

Class Person sets up various properties of a person. Classes B, C, and D 
extend A in various ways for different roles people do.

What I ran into last night was trying to use a function outside of the 
classes to instantiate objects. For example:

Function Z instantiates 3 objects of class B, one each object of class C.

Function Y instantiates one instance of class D and then runs Function Z 
3 times, for a total of 16 objects.

Function X creates one object of Class D and then calls Function 7 3 times.

What I don't know, and couldn't clearly explain on ##php last night, is 
how to have Functions X, Y, and Z be able to create objects from classes 
B, C, and D.

Any help, or good pointers to tutorials? Should I even be using 
functions? The goal is to create groups of objects based off group 
membership guidelines.

If you're well and truly bored, the full code is at:

https://github.com/LeamHall/LHTraveller_Mercenary_Generator

Thanks!

Leam


From chsnyder at gmail.com  Mon Feb 25 08:46:22 2013
From: chsnyder at gmail.com (Chris Snyder)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 08:46:22 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Functions instantiating from Classes
In-Reply-To: <512A0686.2060904@gmail.com>
References: <512A0686.2060904@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPKKYS3DAUo4mMBvAuB88fTxX4NfhLPHYmXo6CNFFD2ro4AKKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Leam Hall <leamhall at gmail.com> wrote:

> OOP Newbie question as I convert a crufty program to OOP
>
> Class Person sets up various properties of a person. Classes B, C, and D
> extend A in various ways for different roles people do.
>
> What I ran into last night was trying to use a function outside of the
> classes to instantiate objects. For example:
>
> Function Z instantiates 3 objects of class B, one each object of class C.
>
> Function Y instantiates one instance of class D and then runs Function Z 3
> times, for a total of 16 objects.
>
> Function X creates one object of Class D and then calls Function 7 3 times.
>
> What I don't know, and couldn't clearly explain on ##php last night, is
> how to have Functions X, Y, and Z be able to create objects from classes B,
> C, and D.
>
> Any help, or good pointers to tutorials? Should I even be using functions?
> The goal is to create groups of objects based off group membership
> guidelines.
>
> If you're well and truly bored, the full code is at:
>
> https://github.com/LeamHall/**LHTraveller_Mercenary_**Generator<https://github.com/LeamHall/LHTraveller_Mercenary_Generator>
>
>
Not so bored, so only took a quick look.

It seems like you're calling functions to generate objects but not
returning those objects or storing them in a global array anywhere?

You are absolutely right to be using objects for this stuff.

There's not really any difference between using a function to instantiate
objects and using a function to instantiate any other variable. You have to
return (or otherwise store) the instantiated variables if you want them to
be available outside the function scope.
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