From bmartin at mac.com  Fri Apr  1 23:51:49 2011
From: bmartin at mac.com (Bruce Martin)
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 23:51:49 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
Message-ID: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>


Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website redesign is going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too much, but I really can't see doing a site for less. 

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html

I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really eating away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding, if in deed it did go up for bid. 

Bruce Martin
c. 917-727-8230
p. 570-421-0670
bmartin at mac.com



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From papillion at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 00:04:02 2011
From: papillion at gmail.com (Anthony Papillion)
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:04:02 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Bruce,

I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
are, you might not be undercharging at all.

Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
according to your local market.

Anthony

On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin <bmartin at mac.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website redesign is
> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too
> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>
> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>
> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really eating
> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding, if in
> deed it did go up for bid.
>
> Bruce Martin
> c. 917-727-8230
> p. 570-421-0670
> bmartin at mac.com
>
>
>
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Anthony Papillion
Lead Developer / Owner
Get real about your software/web development and IT Services
(918) 919-4624

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cajuntechie
My Blog:   http://www.cajuntechie.com


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 03:39:25 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 03:39:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>

That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are 
getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is 
about $50/hr.

Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to 
undercut our rates...

Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other 
skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to 
see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
> Hi Bruce,
>
> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>
> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
> according to your local market.
>
> Anthony
>
> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>  wrote:
>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website redesign is
>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too
>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>
>> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>
>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really eating
>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding, if in
>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>
>> Bruce Martin
>> c. 917-727-8230
>> p. 570-421-0670
>> bmartin at mac.com
>>
>>
>>
>>




From papillion at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 03:56:41 2011
From: papillion at gmail.com (Anthony Papillion)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 02:56:41 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <4D96D6B9.2050605@gmail.com>

Well, my point wasn't so much an exact price but rather that the rate
you charge largely has to do with where you're providing services. Since
I'm not sure where Bruce is (I am assuming NYC but I don't know) I
simply used a number I'd seen elsewhere. The number itself is
meaningless, really, but the idea was what I was trying to convey.

You're right though that 'website design' probably does differ a lot in
rate from programming but numbers weren't my point. :-)

Anthony


On 04/02/2011 02:39 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are
> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is
> about $50/hr.
> 
> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to
> undercut our rates...
> 
> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other
> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to
> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>> Hi Bruce,
>>
>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>>
>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
>> according to your local market.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>  wrote:
>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website
>>> redesign is
>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too
>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>>
>>> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>>
>>>
>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
>>> eating
>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding,
>>> if in
>>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>>
>>> Bruce Martin
>>> c. 917-727-8230
>>> p. 570-421-0670
>>> bmartin at mac.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 04:01:05 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 04:01:05 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4D96D7C1.5090605@kacomputerconsulting.com>

Bruce,

Also, please bear in mind that 95% of the budget on these "big 
redesigns" goes to non-technical persons (management, artists, and 
various hangers-on).   For systems consulting, say, you know, where it's 
just for a few hours or a day or two, and someone restores data and/or 
deals with a hardware emergency, then yes, $90/hr or even $100/hr is 
common.   Major league Sys Admins and DBAs can also score that much.

But at $50/hr, that comes to $2,000+ a week or about $9000+ a month 
(depending on how many hours you can get per week).  For a humble 
programmer of PHP that is about as good as it gets, unfortunately.  I've 
been consulting in the NYC market for over 10 years, BTW, and also was 
on the sales end placing consultants for several years during the middle 
of the last decade, so I know what rates really are...

Stand your ground on a reasonable rate as long as you can; the forces at 
work to undercut us and reduce our income are relentless and brutal.  
Yes, you as a programmer do deserve to make a decent living, no matter 
what you are told by people looking to save a buck or two.  Good luck!!

Kristina

On 4/1/2011 11:51 PM, Bruce Martin wrote:
>
> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website redesign 
> is going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging 
> too much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>
> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>
> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really 
> eating away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this 
> bidding, if in deed it did go up for bid.
>
> Bruce Martin
> c. 917-727-8230
> p. 570-421-0670
> bmartin at mac.com <mailto:bmartin at mac.com>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 04:17:39 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 04:17:39 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D96D6B9.2050605@gmail.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4D96D6B9.2050605@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D96DBA3.5010007@kacomputerconsulting.com>

Most programmers on this esteemed list, including those who are located 
in remote areas of the U.S., agree that working for substantially less 
than $50 sets a bad example and undercuts a living wage for the whole 
lot of us.  I know many programmers outside of NYC who also earn the 
standard $50 an hour and I think that, for anyone of any reasonable 
expertise and experience, between $45-50 is a very reasonable benchmark 
and for costing out "lump sum" projects, the $2,000 a week figure is useful.

Bear in mind that for every hour we bill out, we also incur the cost of 
expenses, business losses through unpaid invoices, unpaid time spent 
marketing, bookkeeping etc.  In reality, billing at $25 an hour would 
lead to a poverty income for any consultant, unless they were 
consistently able to bill 60+ hours each & every week of the year, which 
is not a reasonable or pleasant expectation.

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 3:56 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
> Well, my point wasn't so much an exact price but rather that the rate
> you charge largely has to do with where you're providing services. Since
> I'm not sure where Bruce is (I am assuming NYC but I don't know) I
> simply used a number I'd seen elsewhere. The number itself is
> meaningless, really, but the idea was what I was trying to convey.
>
> You're right though that 'website design' probably does differ a lot in
> rate from programming but numbers weren't my point. :-)
>
> Anthony
>
>
> On 04/02/2011 02:39 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are
>> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is
>> about $50/hr.
>>
>> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to
>> undercut our rates...
>>
>> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other
>> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to
>> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
>>
>> Kristina
>>
>> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>
>>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
>>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
>>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
>>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
>>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>>>
>>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
>>> according to your local market.
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>   wrote:
>>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website
>>>> redesign is
>>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too
>>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>>>
>>>> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
>>>> eating
>>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding,
>>>> if in
>>>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Martin
>>>> c. 917-727-8230
>>>> p. 570-421-0670
>>>> bmartin at mac.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>




From papillion at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 04:19:40 2011
From: papillion at gmail.com (Anthony Papillion)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 03:19:40 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D96DBA3.5010007@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4D96D6B9.2050605@gmail.com>
	<4D96DBA3.5010007@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <4D96DC1C.7030904@gmail.com>

Hmm...good points Kristina and it brought up a few things I'd not
considered. Perhaps I need to raise my rates a bit.

Anthony

On 04/02/2011 03:17 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Most programmers on this esteemed list, including those who are located
> in remote areas of the U.S., agree that working for substantially less
> than $50 sets a bad example and undercuts a living wage for the whole
> lot of us.  I know many programmers outside of NYC who also earn the
> standard $50 an hour and I think that, for anyone of any reasonable
> expertise and experience, between $45-50 is a very reasonable benchmark
> and for costing out "lump sum" projects, the $2,000 a week figure is
> useful.
> 
> Bear in mind that for every hour we bill out, we also incur the cost of
> expenses, business losses through unpaid invoices, unpaid time spent
> marketing, bookkeeping etc.  In reality, billing at $25 an hour would
> lead to a poverty income for any consultant, unless they were
> consistently able to bill 60+ hours each & every week of the year, which
> is not a reasonable or pleasant expectation.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> On 4/2/2011 3:56 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>> Well, my point wasn't so much an exact price but rather that the rate
>> you charge largely has to do with where you're providing services. Since
>> I'm not sure where Bruce is (I am assuming NYC but I don't know) I
>> simply used a number I'd seen elsewhere. The number itself is
>> meaningless, really, but the idea was what I was trying to convey.
>>
>> You're right though that 'website design' probably does differ a lot in
>> rate from programming but numbers weren't my point. :-)
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>> On 04/02/2011 02:39 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are
>>> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is
>>> about $50/hr.
>>>
>>> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to
>>> undercut our rates...
>>>
>>> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other
>>> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to
>>> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
>>>
>>> Kristina
>>>
>>> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>>
>>>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
>>>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
>>>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
>>>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
>>>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>>>>
>>>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
>>>> according to your local market.
>>>>
>>>> Anthony
>>>>
>>>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>   wrote:
>>>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website
>>>>> redesign is
>>>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging
>>>>> too
>>>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
>>>>> eating
>>>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding,
>>>>> if in
>>>>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce Martin
>>>>> c. 917-727-8230
>>>>> p. 570-421-0670
>>>>> bmartin at mac.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 04:34:25 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 04:34:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D96DC1C.7030904@gmail.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4D96D6B9.2050605@gmail.com>	<4D96DBA3.5010007@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4D96DC1C.7030904@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D96DF91.7040703@kacomputerconsulting.com>

:-)


On 4/2/2011 4:19 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
> Hmm...good points Kristina and it brought up a few things I'd not
> considered. Perhaps I need to raise my rates a bit.
>
> Anthony
>
> On 04/02/2011 03:17 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>> Most programmers on this esteemed list, including those who are located
>> in remote areas of the U.S., agree that working for substantially less
>> than $50 sets a bad example and undercuts a living wage for the whole
>> lot of us.  I know many programmers outside of NYC who also earn the
>> standard $50 an hour and I think that, for anyone of any reasonable
>> expertise and experience, between $45-50 is a very reasonable benchmark
>> and for costing out "lump sum" projects, the $2,000 a week figure is
>> useful.
>>
>> Bear in mind that for every hour we bill out, we also incur the cost of
>> expenses, business losses through unpaid invoices, unpaid time spent
>> marketing, bookkeeping etc.  In reality, billing at $25 an hour would
>> lead to a poverty income for any consultant, unless they were
>> consistently able to bill 60+ hours each&  every week of the year, which
>> is not a reasonable or pleasant expectation.
>>
>> Kristina
>>
>> On 4/2/2011 3:56 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>> Well, my point wasn't so much an exact price but rather that the rate
>>> you charge largely has to do with where you're providing services. Since
>>> I'm not sure where Bruce is (I am assuming NYC but I don't know) I
>>> simply used a number I'd seen elsewhere. The number itself is
>>> meaningless, really, but the idea was what I was trying to convey.
>>>
>>> You're right though that 'website design' probably does differ a lot in
>>> rate from programming but numbers weren't my point. :-)
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>>
>>> On 04/02/2011 02:39 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>>> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are
>>>> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is
>>>> about $50/hr.
>>>>
>>>> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to
>>>> undercut our rates...
>>>>
>>>> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other
>>>> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to
>>>> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
>>>>
>>>> Kristina
>>>>
>>>> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
>>>>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
>>>>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
>>>>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
>>>>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
>>>>> according to your local market.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>    wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website
>>>>>> redesign is
>>>>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging
>>>>>> too
>>>>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
>>>>>> eating
>>>>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding,
>>>>>> if in
>>>>>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce Martin
>>>>>> c. 917-727-8230
>>>>>> p. 570-421-0670
>>>>>> bmartin at mac.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>




From donnamarievincent at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  2 08:50:25 2011
From: donnamarievincent at yahoo.com (Donna Marie Vincent)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 05:50:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13757.1301732383.7830.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
References: <mailman.13757.1301732383.7830.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <153716.32373.qm@web35606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

The hourly rate is meaningless because it depends on how much work a particular 
person can get done in an hour.

A proficient and efficient programmer who gets twice as much work done in an 
hour than someone charging $45/hr, can command $90/hr. 



>

> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>
> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
> according to your local market.
>
> Anthony
>
> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>  wrote:
>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website redesign is
>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too
>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>
>>http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>l
>>
>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really eating
>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding, if in
>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>
>> Bruce Martin
>> c. 917-727-8230
>> p. 570-421-0670
>> bmartin at mac.com
>>
>>
>>
>>




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 02:56:41 -0500
From: Anthony Papillion <papillion at gmail.com>
To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
Message-ID: <4D96D6B9.2050605 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Well, my point wasn't so much an exact price but rather that the rate
you charge largely has to do with where you're providing services. Since
I'm not sure where Bruce is (I am assuming NYC but I don't know) I
simply used a number I'd seen elsewhere. The number itself is
meaningless, really, but the idea was what I was trying to convey.

You're right though that 'website design' probably does differ a lot in
rate from programming but numbers weren't my point. :-)

Anthony


On 04/02/2011 02:39 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are
> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is
> about $50/hr.
> 
> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to
> undercut our rates...
> 
> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other
> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to
> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>> Hi Bruce,
>>
>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>>
>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
>> according to your local market.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>  wrote:
>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website
>>> redesign is
>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too
>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>>
>>>http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>>l
>>>
>>>
>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
>>> eating
>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding,
>>> if in
>>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>>
>>> Bruce Martin
>>> c. 917-727-8230
>>> p. 570-421-0670
>>> bmartin at mac.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 04:01:05 -0400
From: Kristina Anderson <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
Message-ID: <4D96D7C1.5090605 at kacomputerconsulting.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

Bruce,

Also, please bear in mind that 95% of the budget on these "big 
redesigns" goes to non-technical persons (management, artists, and 
various hangers-on).   For systems consulting, say, you know, where it's 
just for a few hours or a day or two, and someone restores data and/or 
deals with a hardware emergency, then yes, $90/hr or even $100/hr is 
common.   Major league Sys Admins and DBAs can also score that much.

But at $50/hr, that comes to $2,000+ a week or about $9000+ a month 
(depending on how many hours you can get per week).  For a humble 
programmer of PHP that is about as good as it gets, unfortunately.  I've 
been consulting in the NYC market for over 10 years, BTW, and also was 
on the sales end placing consultants for several years during the middle 
of the last decade, so I know what rates really are...

Stand your ground on a reasonable rate as long as you can; the forces at 
work to undercut us and reduce our income are relentless and brutal.  
Yes, you as a programmer do deserve to make a decent living, no matter 
what you are told by people looking to save a buck or two.  Good luck!!

Kristina

On 4/1/2011 11:51 PM, Bruce Martin wrote:
>
> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website redesign 
> is going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging 
> too much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>
>http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>l
>
> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really 
> eating away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this 
> bidding, if in deed it did go up for bid.
>
> Bruce Martin
> c. 917-727-8230
> p. 570-421-0670
> bmartin at mac.com <mailto:bmartin at mac.com>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 04:17:39 -0400
From: Kristina Anderson <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
Message-ID: <4D96DBA3.5010007 at kacomputerconsulting.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Most programmers on this esteemed list, including those who are located 
in remote areas of the U.S., agree that working for substantially less 
than $50 sets a bad example and undercuts a living wage for the whole 
lot of us.  I know many programmers outside of NYC who also earn the 
standard $50 an hour and I think that, for anyone of any reasonable 
expertise and experience, between $45-50 is a very reasonable benchmark 
and for costing out "lump sum" projects, the $2,000 a week figure is useful.

Bear in mind that for every hour we bill out, we also incur the cost of 
expenses, business losses through unpaid invoices, unpaid time spent 
marketing, bookkeeping etc.  In reality, billing at $25 an hour would 
lead to a poverty income for any consultant, unless they were 
consistently able to bill 60+ hours each & every week of the year, which 
is not a reasonable or pleasant expectation.

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 3:56 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
> Well, my point wasn't so much an exact price but rather that the rate
> you charge largely has to do with where you're providing services. Since
> I'm not sure where Bruce is (I am assuming NYC but I don't know) I
> simply used a number I'd seen elsewhere. The number itself is
> meaningless, really, but the idea was what I was trying to convey.
>
> You're right though that 'website design' probably does differ a lot in
> rate from programming but numbers weren't my point. :-)
>
> Anthony
>
>
> On 04/02/2011 02:39 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are
>> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is
>> about $50/hr.
>>
>> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to
>> undercut our rates...
>>
>> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other
>> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to
>> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
>>
>> Kristina
>>
>> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>
>>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
>>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
>>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
>>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
>>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>>>
>>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
>>> according to your local market.
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>   wrote:
>>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website
>>>> redesign is
>>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too
>>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>>>
>>>>http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>>>l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
>>>> eating
>>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding,
>>>> if in
>>>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Martin
>>>> c. 917-727-8230
>>>> p. 570-421-0670
>>>> bmartin at mac.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 03:19:40 -0500
From: Anthony Papillion <papillion at gmail.com>
To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
Message-ID: <4D96DC1C.7030904 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hmm...good points Kristina and it brought up a few things I'd not
considered. Perhaps I need to raise my rates a bit.

Anthony

On 04/02/2011 03:17 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Most programmers on this esteemed list, including those who are located
> in remote areas of the U.S., agree that working for substantially less
> than $50 sets a bad example and undercuts a living wage for the whole
> lot of us.  I know many programmers outside of NYC who also earn the
> standard $50 an hour and I think that, for anyone of any reasonable
> expertise and experience, between $45-50 is a very reasonable benchmark
> and for costing out "lump sum" projects, the $2,000 a week figure is
> useful.
> 
> Bear in mind that for every hour we bill out, we also incur the cost of
> expenses, business losses through unpaid invoices, unpaid time spent
> marketing, bookkeeping etc.  In reality, billing at $25 an hour would
> lead to a poverty income for any consultant, unless they were
> consistently able to bill 60+ hours each & every week of the year, which
> is not a reasonable or pleasant expectation.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> On 4/2/2011 3:56 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>> Well, my point wasn't so much an exact price but rather that the rate
>> you charge largely has to do with where you're providing services. Since
>> I'm not sure where Bruce is (I am assuming NYC but I don't know) I
>> simply used a number I'd seen elsewhere. The number itself is
>> meaningless, really, but the idea was what I was trying to convey.
>>
>> You're right though that 'website design' probably does differ a lot in
>> rate from programming but numbers weren't my point. :-)
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>> On 04/02/2011 02:39 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are
>>> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is
>>> about $50/hr.
>>>
>>> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to
>>> undercut our rates...
>>>
>>> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other
>>> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to
>>> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
>>>
>>> Kristina
>>>
>>> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>>
>>>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
>>>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
>>>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
>>>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
>>>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>>>>
>>>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
>>>> according to your local market.
>>>>
>>>> Anthony
>>>>
>>>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>   wrote:
>>>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website
>>>>> redesign is
>>>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging
>>>>> too
>>>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>>>>l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
>>>>> eating
>>>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding,
>>>>> if in
>>>>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce Martin
>>>>> c. 917-727-8230
>>>>> p. 570-421-0670
>>>>> bmartin at mac.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation


------------------------------

_______________________________________________
talk mailing list
talk at lists.nyphp.org
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

End of talk Digest, Vol 54, Issue 1
***********************************
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From bmartin at mac.com  Sat Apr  2 09:47:41 2011
From: bmartin at mac.com (Bruce Martin)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 09:47:41 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D96DBA3.5010007@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4D96D6B9.2050605@gmail.com>
	<4D96DBA3.5010007@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <A34A17F9-BACB-497D-94C5-0C4C338F5DF9@mac.com>

Thanks for the replies. 

Bruce Martin
c. 917-727-8230
p. 570-421-0670
bmartin at mac.com



On Apr 2, 2011, at 4:17 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:

> Most programmers on this esteemed list, including those who are located in remote areas of the U.S., agree that working for substantially less than $50 sets a bad example and undercuts a living wage for the whole lot of us.  I know many programmers outside of NYC who also earn the standard $50 an hour and I think that, for anyone of any reasonable expertise and experience, between $45-50 is a very reasonable benchmark and for costing out "lump sum" projects, the $2,000 a week figure is useful.
> 
> Bear in mind that for every hour we bill out, we also incur the cost of expenses, business losses through unpaid invoices, unpaid time spent marketing, bookkeeping etc.  In reality, billing at $25 an hour would lead to a poverty income for any consultant, unless they were consistently able to bill 60+ hours each & every week of the year, which is not a reasonable or pleasant expectation.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> On 4/2/2011 3:56 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>> Well, my point wasn't so much an exact price but rather that the rate
>> you charge largely has to do with where you're providing services. Since
>> I'm not sure where Bruce is (I am assuming NYC but I don't know) I
>> simply used a number I'd seen elsewhere. The number itself is
>> meaningless, really, but the idea was what I was trying to convey.
>> 
>> You're right though that 'website design' probably does differ a lot in
>> rate from programming but numbers weren't my point. :-)
>> 
>> Anthony
>> 
>> 
>> On 04/02/2011 02:39 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are
>>> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is
>>> about $50/hr.
>>> 
>>> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to
>>> undercut our rates...
>>> 
>>> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other
>>> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to
>>> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
>>> 
>>> Kristina
>>> 
>>> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>> 
>>>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
>>>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
>>>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
>>>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
>>>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>>>> 
>>>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
>>>> according to your local market.
>>>> 
>>>> Anthony
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>   wrote:
>>>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website
>>>>> redesign is
>>>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too
>>>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
>>>>> eating
>>>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding,
>>>>> if in
>>>>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bruce Martin
>>>>> c. 917-727-8230
>>>>> p. 570-421-0670
>>>>> bmartin at mac.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>> 
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> 
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation



From jmcgraw1 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 10:07:45 2011
From: jmcgraw1 at gmail.com (Jake McGraw)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 10:07:45 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <A34A17F9-BACB-497D-94C5-0C4C338F5DF9@mac.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4D96D6B9.2050605@gmail.com>
	<4D96DBA3.5010007@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<A34A17F9-BACB-497D-94C5-0C4C338F5DF9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=7scVYzNKwLbuB3nzBbJ60ZTHcrg@mail.gmail.com>

NYC programmers should be charging much greater than $50/hour. What's
$50/hour after the Federal, State and Local governments get their cut? As a
consultant/part-timer/freelancer you'll be getting paid via 1099, which, at
least in NYC, will be taxed at up to 45%. I haven't worked in finance, but
when I've done parttime consulting, $150/hr was my going rate. In case
anyone is unsure, demand for programmers in many localities is very, very
high. In a hiring environment like this, there should be no reason to
devalue your work to win a contract.

- jake

On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Bruce Martin <bmartin at mac.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the replies.
>
> Bruce Martin
> c. 917-727-8230
> p. 570-421-0670
> bmartin at mac.com
>
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2011, at 4:17 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>
> > Most programmers on this esteemed list, including those who are located
> in remote areas of the U.S., agree that working for substantially less than
> $50 sets a bad example and undercuts a living wage for the whole lot of us.
>  I know many programmers outside of NYC who also earn the standard $50 an
> hour and I think that, for anyone of any reasonable expertise and
> experience, between $45-50 is a very reasonable benchmark and for costing
> out "lump sum" projects, the $2,000 a week figure is useful.
> >
> > Bear in mind that for every hour we bill out, we also incur the cost of
> expenses, business losses through unpaid invoices, unpaid time spent
> marketing, bookkeeping etc.  In reality, billing at $25 an hour would lead
> to a poverty income for any consultant, unless they were consistently able
> to bill 60+ hours each & every week of the year, which is not a reasonable
> or pleasant expectation.
> >
> > Kristina
> >
> > On 4/2/2011 3:56 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
> >> Well, my point wasn't so much an exact price but rather that the rate
> >> you charge largely has to do with where you're providing services. Since
> >> I'm not sure where Bruce is (I am assuming NYC but I don't know) I
> >> simply used a number I'd seen elsewhere. The number itself is
> >> meaningless, really, but the idea was what I was trying to convey.
> >>
> >> You're right though that 'website design' probably does differ a lot in
> >> rate from programming but numbers weren't my point. :-)
> >>
> >> Anthony
> >>
> >>
> >> On 04/02/2011 02:39 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> >>> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are
> >>> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is
> >>> about $50/hr.
> >>>
> >>> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to
> >>> undercut our rates...
> >>>
> >>> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other
> >>> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to
> >>> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
> >>>
> >>> Kristina
> >>>
> >>> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
> >>>> Hi Bruce,
> >>>>
> >>>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
> >>>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
> >>>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
> >>>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
> >>>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
> >>>>
> >>>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
> >>>> according to your local market.
> >>>>
> >>>> Anthony
> >>>>
> >>>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>   wrote:
> >>>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website
> >>>>> redesign is
> >>>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging
> too
> >>>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
> >>>>> eating
> >>>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding,
> >>>>> if in
> >>>>> deed it did go up for bid.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bruce Martin
> >>>>> c. 917-727-8230
> >>>>> p. 570-421-0670
> >>>>> bmartin at mac.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> >>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>>
> >>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> >> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >>
> >> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> > http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> >
> > http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 10:16:52 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 10:16:52 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=7scVYzNKwLbuB3nzBbJ60ZTHcrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4D96D6B9.2050605@gmail.com>	<4D96DBA3.5010007@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<A34A17F9-BACB-497D-94C5-0C4C338F5DF9@mac.com>
	<BANLkTi=7scVYzNKwLbuB3nzBbJ60ZTHcrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D972FD4.3070101@kacomputerconsulting.com>

Jake,

I agree totally, however the market won't bear those rates.  1099 income 
is subject to deductions for home office, travel expenses, meal expenses 
and the like and as such, has greater tax benefits than W2 income.  In 
actuality, in localities where there are few engineers, rates are 
higher.  NYC is packed to the gills with engineers seeking work.  A post 
on NYC Craig's List for a programmer nets 1,000 resumes in one DAY.   
Between the high cost of living and the low rates due to high 
concentration of available skilled workers, NYC's not a great place to 
be a programmer, for sure.

Believe me when I tell you, if there was any way for me to get more than 
$50/hr, I would have found it.  I loathe the situation and am looking to 
leave the field entirely in the near future.  For now, I slog it out and 
take what I can get.

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 10:07 AM, Jake McGraw wrote:
> NYC programmers should be charging much greater than $50/hour. What's 
> $50/hour after the Federal, State and Local governments get their cut? 
> As a consultant/part-timer/freelancer you'll be getting paid via 1099, 
> which, at least in NYC, will be taxed at up to 45%. I haven't worked 
> in finance, but when I've done parttime consulting, $150/hr was my 
> going rate. In case anyone is unsure, demand for programmers in many 
> localities is very, very high. In a hiring environment like this, 
> there should be no reason to devalue your work to win a contract.
>
> - jake



From ereyes at totalcreations.com  Sat Apr  2 11:20:42 2011
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com (Edgar Reyes)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 11:20:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>

I think we are talking about 2 different things here, one is programming and
the other is designing, Krista programmers in NYC make a lot more then $50
per hour, depending on your skill set and what language you program in. For
design work yes $50 per hour is about right for simple design work and even
that is in the lower end, and that can vary depending on the sort of design,
if it involves some sort of specialize CSS and or flash etc. then it goes
up. 

ER 

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Kristina Anderson
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 3:39 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?

That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are 
getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is 
about $50/hr.

Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to 
undercut our rates...

Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other 
skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to 
see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
> Hi Bruce,
>
> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>
> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
> according to your local market.
>
> Anthony
>
> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>  wrote:
>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website redesign is
>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too
>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>
>>
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recover
ygov-web-site.html
>>
>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
eating
>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding, if
in
>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>
>> Bruce Martin
>> c. 917-727-8230
>> p. 570-421-0670
>> bmartin at mac.com
>>
>>
>>
>>


_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 12:20:10 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:20:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
Message-ID: <4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>

Ed,

I've been a programmer in NYC for almost 13 years (maybe you assumed 
otherwise because of my gender), I started out in 1998 making $50 an 
hour, and I'm still making $50 an hour, and everyone else I know who is 
a PHP programmer in NYC is making between $45-55 an hour as well (over 
20 other people that I personally know and have worked with).

It's great to talk about what "should be" or what "could be" but the 
reality is, $50 an hour.

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 11:20 AM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
> I think we are talking about 2 different things here, one is programming and
> the other is designing, Krista programmers in NYC make a lot more then $50
> per hour, depending on your skill set and what language you program in. For
> design work yes $50 per hour is about right for simple design work and even
> that is in the lower end, and that can vary depending on the sort of design,
> if it involves some sort of specialize CSS and or flash etc. then it goes
> up.
>
> ER



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 12:26:40 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:26:40 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <4D974E40.8040606@kacomputerconsulting.com>

BTW even a cursory search on Dice.com or a talk with any reputable 
Technical Recruitment professional will show you that the average 
full-time salary for a programmer, of any type, in NYC, is about 90K a year.

This calculates out to, yep, about $50 an hour...including the cost of 
benefits, and assuming the full-timers have a workweek closer to 50 
hours per week (which most do).

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 12:20 PM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Ed,
>
> I've been a programmer in NYC for almost 13 years (maybe you assumed 
> otherwise because of my gender), I started out in 1998 making $50 an 
> hour, and I'm still making $50 an hour, and everyone else I know who 
> is a PHP programmer in NYC is making between $45-55 an hour as well 
> (over 20 other people that I personally know and have worked with).
>
> It's great to talk about what "should be" or what "could be" but the 
> reality is, $50 an hour.
>
> Kristina
>
> On 4/2/2011 11:20 AM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
>> I think we are talking about 2 different things here, one is 
>> programming and
>> the other is designing, Krista programmers in NYC make a lot more 
>> then $50
>> per hour, depending on your skill set and what language you program 
>> in. For
>> design work yes $50 per hour is about right for simple design work 
>> and even
>> that is in the lower end, and that can vary depending on the sort of 
>> design,
>> if it involves some sort of specialize CSS and or flash etc. then it 
>> goes
>> up.
>>
>> ER
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>




From ereyes at totalcreations.com  Sat Apr  2 12:35:11 2011
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com (Edgar Reyes)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:35:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <8021499067154FD7A0A795D9D3D679E0@MainTop>

Hi Kristina, 

No, no assumptions, I sure you are a good programmer, but every one I speak
to that are PHP programmers specially with as much experience as you have
are charging a lot more then $50 an hour lol.. Don't you think that after 13
years you have earned a raise? 

Than again I really charge more based on a project not so much per hour, but
when I do have to come back for what ever time to fix things or small
updates my rates start at $75 per hour. Heck if the geeksquad can charge
69.99 to set up a pc and $49.99 to set up an email account why would I
charge less than that lol .

Bottom line whether is selling your services or anything else it's only
worth as much as people are willing to pay for it. but in my opinion you
should not short change your worth, like I tell my soon to be clients and my
current clients, I may not be the least expensive but you get what you pay
for, and I can show clients how a lot of the work that I've have done has
paid for it self 10 fold if not more, so it's worth the investment and some
of them don't hire me at that time but do call me back to fix the mess some
one else makes and then I get to charge them more cause now I have to spend
time figuring out the mess that some one else made.

ER 

-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Kristina Anderson
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 12:20 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?

Ed,

I've been a programmer in NYC for almost 13 years (maybe you assumed 
otherwise because of my gender), I started out in 1998 making $50 an 
hour, and I'm still making $50 an hour, and everyone else I know who is 
a PHP programmer in NYC is making between $45-55 an hour as well (over 
20 other people that I personally know and have worked with).

It's great to talk about what "should be" or what "could be" but the 
reality is, $50 an hour.

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 11:20 AM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
> I think we are talking about 2 different things here, one is programming
and
> the other is designing, Krista programmers in NYC make a lot more then $50
> per hour, depending on your skill set and what language you program in.
For
> design work yes $50 per hour is about right for simple design work and
even
> that is in the lower end, and that can vary depending on the sort of
design,
> if it involves some sort of specialize CSS and or flash etc. then it goes
> up.
>
> ER

_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation



From travisvaldes at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 12:46:37 2011
From: travisvaldes at gmail.com (Travis Valdes)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 12:46:37 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] talk Digest, Vol 54, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1301760001.26317.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1301760001.26317.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <B83C6CC9-ADF0-4514-BB9E-BB7F7C41A40C@gmail.com>

The agency I work for charges $125/hr for both design and programming. We're in north nj, and most of our clients are on the west coast.

I've done freelancing for clients in NYC and charged $125/hr successfully. A designer working for the same company charged $150/hr.

I think it depends on your skills and how well and efficiently you can get the job done. Not all people are willing to pay for quality, but those are the clients everyone prefers to work with.

Travis
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 2, 2011, at 12:00 PM, talk-request at lists.nyphp.org wrote:

> Send talk mailing list submissions to
>    talk at lists.nyphp.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of talk digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: How much is a site redesign worth? (Bruce Martin)
>   2. Re: How much is a site redesign worth? (Jake McGraw)
>   3. Re: How much is a site redesign worth? (Kristina Anderson)
>   4. Re: How much is a site redesign worth? (Edgar Reyes)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 09:47:41 -0400
> From: Bruce Martin <bmartin at mac.com>
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
> Message-ID: <A34A17F9-BACB-497D-94C5-0C4C338F5DF9 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
> 
> Thanks for the replies. 
> 
> Bruce Martin
> c. 917-727-8230
> p. 570-421-0670
> bmartin at mac.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Apr 2, 2011, at 4:17 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> 
>> Most programmers on this esteemed list, including those who are located in remote areas of the U.S., agree that working for substantially less than $50 sets a bad example and undercuts a living wage for the whole lot of us.  I know many programmers outside of NYC who also earn the standard $50 an hour and I think that, for anyone of any reasonable expertise and experience, between $45-50 is a very reasonable benchmark and for costing out "lump sum" projects, the $2,000 a week figure is useful.
>> 
>> Bear in mind that for every hour we bill out, we also incur the cost of expenses, business losses through unpaid invoices, unpaid time spent marketing, bookkeeping etc.  In reality, billing at $25 an hour would lead to a poverty income for any consultant, unless they were consistently able to bill 60+ hours each & every week of the year, which is not a reasonable or pleasant expectation.
>> 
>> Kristina
>> 
>> On 4/2/2011 3:56 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>> Well, my point wasn't so much an exact price but rather that the rate
>>> you charge largely has to do with where you're providing services. Since
>>> I'm not sure where Bruce is (I am assuming NYC but I don't know) I
>>> simply used a number I'd seen elsewhere. The number itself is
>>> meaningless, really, but the idea was what I was trying to convey.
>>> 
>>> You're right though that 'website design' probably does differ a lot in
>>> rate from programming but numbers weren't my point. :-)
>>> 
>>> Anthony
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 04/02/2011 02:39 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>>> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are
>>>> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is
>>>> about $50/hr.
>>>> 
>>>> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to
>>>> undercut our rates...
>>>> 
>>>> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other
>>>> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to
>>>> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
>>>> 
>>>> Kristina
>>>> 
>>>> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
>>>>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
>>>>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
>>>>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
>>>>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
>>>>> according to your local market.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Anthony
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>   wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website
>>>>>> redesign is
>>>>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too
>>>>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
>>>>>> eating
>>>>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding,
>>>>>> if in
>>>>>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bruce Martin
>>>>>> c. 917-727-8230
>>>>>> p. 570-421-0670
>>>>>> bmartin at mac.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>> 
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> 
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 10:07:45 -0400
> From: Jake McGraw <jmcgraw1 at gmail.com>
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
> Message-ID: <BANLkTi=7scVYzNKwLbuB3nzBbJ60ZTHcrg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> NYC programmers should be charging much greater than $50/hour. What's
> $50/hour after the Federal, State and Local governments get their cut? As a
> consultant/part-timer/freelancer you'll be getting paid via 1099, which, at
> least in NYC, will be taxed at up to 45%. I haven't worked in finance, but
> when I've done parttime consulting, $150/hr was my going rate. In case
> anyone is unsure, demand for programmers in many localities is very, very
> high. In a hiring environment like this, there should be no reason to
> devalue your work to win a contract.
> 
> - jake
> 
> On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Bruce Martin <bmartin at mac.com> wrote:
> 
>> Thanks for the replies.
>> 
>> Bruce Martin
>> c. 917-727-8230
>> p. 570-421-0670
>> bmartin at mac.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 2, 2011, at 4:17 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>> 
>>> Most programmers on this esteemed list, including those who are located
>> in remote areas of the U.S., agree that working for substantially less than
>> $50 sets a bad example and undercuts a living wage for the whole lot of us.
>> I know many programmers outside of NYC who also earn the standard $50 an
>> hour and I think that, for anyone of any reasonable expertise and
>> experience, between $45-50 is a very reasonable benchmark and for costing
>> out "lump sum" projects, the $2,000 a week figure is useful.
>>> 
>>> Bear in mind that for every hour we bill out, we also incur the cost of
>> expenses, business losses through unpaid invoices, unpaid time spent
>> marketing, bookkeeping etc.  In reality, billing at $25 an hour would lead
>> to a poverty income for any consultant, unless they were consistently able
>> to bill 60+ hours each & every week of the year, which is not a reasonable
>> or pleasant expectation.
>>> 
>>> Kristina
>>> 
>>> On 4/2/2011 3:56 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>>> Well, my point wasn't so much an exact price but rather that the rate
>>>> you charge largely has to do with where you're providing services. Since
>>>> I'm not sure where Bruce is (I am assuming NYC but I don't know) I
>>>> simply used a number I'd seen elsewhere. The number itself is
>>>> meaningless, really, but the idea was what I was trying to convey.
>>>> 
>>>> You're right though that 'website design' probably does differ a lot in
>>>> rate from programming but numbers weren't my point. :-)
>>>> 
>>>> Anthony
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 04/02/2011 02:39 AM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>>>>> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are
>>>>> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is
>>>>> about $50/hr.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to
>>>>> undercut our rates...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other
>>>>> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to
>>>>> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Kristina
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
>>>>>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
>>>>>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
>>>>>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
>>>>>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
>>>>>> according to your local market.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Anthony
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>   wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website
>>>>>>> redesign is
>>>>>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging
>> too
>>>>>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recoverygov-web-site.html
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
>>>>>>> eating
>>>>>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding,
>>>>>>> if in
>>>>>>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bruce Martin
>>>>>>> c. 917-727-8230
>>>>>>> p. 570-421-0670
>>>>>>> bmartin at mac.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>> 
>>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>> 
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>> 
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 10:16:52 -0400
> From: Kristina Anderson <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
> Message-ID: <4D972FD4.3070101 at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Jake,
> 
> I agree totally, however the market won't bear those rates.  1099 income 
> is subject to deductions for home office, travel expenses, meal expenses 
> and the like and as such, has greater tax benefits than W2 income.  In 
> actuality, in localities where there are few engineers, rates are 
> higher.  NYC is packed to the gills with engineers seeking work.  A post 
> on NYC Craig's List for a programmer nets 1,000 resumes in one DAY.   
> Between the high cost of living and the low rates due to high 
> concentration of available skilled workers, NYC's not a great place to 
> be a programmer, for sure.
> 
> Believe me when I tell you, if there was any way for me to get more than 
> $50/hr, I would have found it.  I loathe the situation and am looking to 
> leave the field entirely in the near future.  For now, I slog it out and 
> take what I can get.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> On 4/2/2011 10:07 AM, Jake McGraw wrote:
>> NYC programmers should be charging much greater than $50/hour. What's 
>> $50/hour after the Federal, State and Local governments get their cut? 
>> As a consultant/part-timer/freelancer you'll be getting paid via 1099, 
>> which, at least in NYC, will be taxed at up to 45%. I haven't worked 
>> in finance, but when I've done parttime consulting, $150/hr was my 
>> going rate. In case anyone is unsure, demand for programmers in many 
>> localities is very, very high. In a hiring environment like this, 
>> there should be no reason to devalue your work to win a contract.
>> 
>> - jake
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 11:20:42 -0400
> From: Edgar Reyes <ereyes at totalcreations.com>
> To: 'NYPHP Talk' <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
> Message-ID: <4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14 at MainTop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> I think we are talking about 2 different things here, one is programming and
> the other is designing, Krista programmers in NYC make a lot more then $50
> per hour, depending on your skill set and what language you program in. For
> design work yes $50 per hour is about right for simple design work and even
> that is in the lower end, and that can vary depending on the sort of design,
> if it involves some sort of specialize CSS and or flash etc. then it goes
> up. 
> 
> ER 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
> Behalf Of Kristina Anderson
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 3:39 AM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
> 
> That is incorrect.  Perhaps a few programmers at Wall Street firms are 
> getting $90 an hour, but the going rate for normal folks here in NYC is 
> about $50/hr.
> 
> Although for sure plenty of folks come onto the NYC list and try to 
> undercut our rates...
> 
> Also "website redesign" is not usually programming but involves other 
> skills (like CSS, graphics design, etc).  I would not be surprised to 
> see rates differ between that and actual programming tasks.
> 
> Kristina
> 
> On 4/2/2011 12:04 AM, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>> Hi Bruce,
>> 
>> I think it largely depends where you are. For example, if you're in
>> NYC, you can easily command a *much* higher rate than I can here in
>> Oklahoma. In NYC, the going rate is $90+ an hour I hear while I work
>> comfortably here for $25.50 to $30 an hour. So depending on where you
>> are, you might not be undercharging at all.
>> 
>> Check your competition and see what they charge. Set your prices
>> according to your local market.
>> 
>> Anthony
>> 
>> On 4/1/11, Bruce Martin<bmartin at mac.com>  wrote:
>>> Hi all, I was wondering how much the going rate for a website redesign is
>>> going for now days. I am always turned down in my town for charging too
>>> much, but I really can't see doing a site for less.
>>> 
>>> 
> http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/07/18m-being-spent-to-redesign-recover
> ygov-web-site.html
>>> 
>>> I think I am under charging. Sorry to bring this up but it is really
> eating
>>> away at me, as I know I would have loved to been in on this bidding, if
> in
>>> deed it did go up for bid.
>>> 
>>> Bruce Martin
>>> c. 917-727-8230
>>> p. 570-421-0670
>>> bmartin at mac.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at lists.nyphp.org
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
> 
> End of talk Digest, Vol 54, Issue 3
> ***********************************


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 12:48:06 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:48:06 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <8021499067154FD7A0A795D9D3D679E0@MainTop>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<8021499067154FD7A0A795D9D3D679E0@MainTop>
Message-ID: <4D975346.7020807@kacomputerconsulting.com>

Ed,

The reality of this economy is that small & medium sized businesses ARE 
NOT GOING TO PAY more than $2,000 a week for an engineer.

If you disagree, I mean, that's great, I'd love to make twice that but 
the reality is that if I ask for $4,000 a week, I'm going to be looking 
for work for A LONG TIME.  And $2,000 in US cash is worth far more than 
$4,000 in my fantasy world of what I'd "like to earn".

I'll even take $6,500 a month on occasion if the project is for someone 
I want to help.  I think that it's great to aim higher, I am all in 
favor of making the bucks, but in this economy $8,000 a month is A LOT 
in these company's minds.

I agree if someone is getting jerked around and asked for "small 
updates" (which I don't waste time with, I take on larger projects in 
the area of $5,000 + only), then yeah.  But the reality is, $8,000 a 
month is what people earn.   This is provable, this is reality, and 
fantasizing about making what lawyers make isn't going to change that 
reality.

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 12:35 PM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
> Hi Kristina,
>
> No, no assumptions, I sure you are a good programmer, but every one I speak
> to that are PHP programmers specially with as much experience as you have
> are charging a lot more then $50 an hour lol.. Don't you think that after 13
> years you have earned a raise?
>
> Than again I really charge more based on a project not so much per hour, but
> when I do have to come back for what ever time to fix things or small
> updates my rates start at $75 per hour. Heck if the geeksquad can charge
> 69.99 to set up a pc and $49.99 to set up an email account why would I
> charge less than that lol .
>
> Bottom line whether is selling your services or anything else it's only
> worth as much as people are willing to pay for it. but in my opinion you
> should not short change your worth, like I tell my soon to be clients and my
> current clients, I may not be the least expensive but you get what you pay
> for, and I can show clients how a lot of the work that I've have done has
> paid for it self 10 fold if not more, so it's worth the investment and some
> of them don't hire me at that time but do call me back to fix the mess some
> one else makes and then I get to charge them more cause now I have to spend
> time figuring out the mess that some one else made.
>
> ER
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
> Behalf Of Kristina Anderson
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 12:20 PM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
>
> Ed,
>
> I've been a programmer in NYC for almost 13 years (maybe you assumed
> otherwise because of my gender), I started out in 1998 making $50 an
> hour, and I'm still making $50 an hour, and everyone else I know who is
> a PHP programmer in NYC is making between $45-55 an hour as well (over
> 20 other people that I personally know and have worked with).
>
> It's great to talk about what "should be" or what "could be" but the
> reality is, $50 an hour.
>
> Kristina
>
> On 4/2/2011 11:20 AM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
>> I think we are talking about 2 different things here, one is programming
> and
>> the other is designing, Krista programmers in NYC make a lot more then $50
>> per hour, depending on your skill set and what language you program in.
> For
>> design work yes $50 per hour is about right for simple design work and
> even
>> that is in the lower end, and that can vary depending on the sort of
> design,
>> if it involves some sort of specialize CSS and or flash etc. then it goes
>> up.
>>
>> ER
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>




From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 13:01:25 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 13:01:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] website redesign
In-Reply-To: <B83C6CC9-ADF0-4514-BB9E-BB7F7C41A40C@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1301760001.26317.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
	<B83C6CC9-ADF0-4514-BB9E-BB7F7C41A40C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D975665.8040609@kacomputerconsulting.com>

The agency charges that to the client, and a lot of "interactive 
agencies" charge exorbitant rates for garbage websites, but very little 
of that is actually going into the pockets of hardworking programmers.

Again I've heard many tales of programmers supposedly getting these 
rates, but in real life, I don't know anyone.  (However I DO know of a 
lot of "interactive agencies" that have gone bankrupt and/or lost 
clients due to charging those sorts of rates...)

Maybe it is like the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot...? :-)

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 12:46 PM, Travis Valdes wrote:
> The agency I work for charges $125/hr for both design and programming. We're in north nj, and most of our clients are on the west coast.
>
> I've done freelancing for clients in NYC and charged $125/hr successfully. A designer working for the same company charged $150/hr.
>
> I think it depends on your skills and how well and efficiently you can get the job done. Not all people are willing to pay for quality, but those are the clients everyone prefers to work with.
>
> Travis
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 2, 2011, at 12:00 PM, talk-request at lists.nyphp.org wrote:
>


From tedd.sperling at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 14:18:14 2011
From: tedd.sperling at gmail.com (tedd)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:18:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D96DC1C.7030904@gmail.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4D96D6B9.2050605@gmail.com>
	<4D96DBA3.5010007@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4D96DC1C.7030904@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240803c9bd16d10052@[192.168.1.4]>

At 3:19 AM -0500 4/2/11, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>Hmm...good points Kristina and it brought up a few things I'd not
>considered. Perhaps I need to raise my rates a bit.
>
>Anthony

Anthony et al:

Kristina knows her stuff and charges accordingly. I would listen to her.

You will always find clients who say they can find professional 
developers for much less than what you charge no matter what you 
charge -- that goes with the territory. You have to understand that 
you either stand your ground, or comply, but you are the one who has 
to live with the decision.

I had one client, back when I charged on $50/hour (I now charge 
$100/hour), say to me "$50 and hour!!! I never paid that much for 
anything. Would you considering working for $25 per hour?" I replied, 
"Sure, but it will take me twice as long to get anything done."

The client didn't hire me, but a year later he came back asking me 
the same question and complaining that he couldn't find a good 
developer. Some clients learn slow.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com/


From donnamarievincent at yahoo.com  Sat Apr  2 14:25:17 2011
From: donnamarievincent at yahoo.com (Donna Marie Vincent)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:25:17 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13842.1301762807.7830.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
References: <mailman.13842.1301762807.7830.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <6F97E273-3D4D-4ACD-97C8-2D710A033049@yahoo.com>

If you're talking about a fulltime job you  can't compare that because your employer is paying half your s/s plus other benefits and you get paid for nonbillable time. I don't know any consultant in the NYC area who is billing less than $75/hr

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 2, 2011, at 12:46 PM, talk-request at lists.nyphp.org wrote:

> Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 14:39:03 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 14:39:03 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <p06240803c9bd16d10052@[192.168.1.4]>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4D96D6B9.2050605@gmail.com>	<4D96DBA3.5010007@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4D96DC1C.7030904@gmail.com>
	<p06240803c9bd16d10052@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <4D976D47.106@kacomputerconsulting.com>

On 4/2/2011 2:18 PM, tedd wrote:
> At 3:19 AM -0500 4/2/11, Anthony Papillion wrote:
>> Hmm...good points Kristina and it brought up a few things I'd not
>> considered. Perhaps I need to raise my rates a bit.
>>
>> Anthony
>
> Anthony et al:
>
> Kristina knows her stuff and charges accordingly. I would listen to her.
>
> You will always find clients who say they can find professional 
> developers for much less than what you charge no matter what you 
> charge -- that goes with the territory. You have to understand that 
> you either stand your ground, or comply, but you are the one who has 
> to live with the decision.
>
> I had one client, back when I charged on $50/hour (I now charge 
> $100/hour), say to me "$50 and hour!!! I never paid that much for 
> anything. Would you considering working for $25 per hour?" I replied, 
> "Sure, but it will take me twice as long to get anything done."
>
> The client didn't hire me, but a year later he came back asking me the 
> same question and complaining that he couldn't find a good developer. 
> Some clients learn slow.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>

Tedd - Thanks, and this is good news!

  What you say about it then "taking twice as long to get it done" is so 
true.  Hourly rates are based on what we negotiate with the client.  
Unless the client is sitting there with a stopwatch clocking your every 
move (a rare situation), there really isn't any realistic way the client 
can be absolutely certain how many hours were spent.  So what it comes 
down to is
(a) what's the client's perception of the work you've done and how long 
it "should" take [this is why it's known that any client who says "oh, 
this should not take more than 4 or 5 hours" is no client we want to have],
(b) how big is the project?  Billing $50 for 200 hours is 10K, billing 
$100 for 5 hours is $500.  Some clients are just not worth dealing with 
when the hassle/payout ratio is examined; and
(c) what are ways you can increase your actual income without giving the 
appearance that you are charging more?  Reusing code, leveraging 
contacts with existing clients to create new business, cutting deals "OK 
I'll give you a break here but next time, please be prepared to pay 
market rates", limiting time wasted on non-billable phone calls, etc.

I know I've learned most of this stuff the hard way and had many 
misadventures over the years.  I've smartened up considerably about who 
I deal with, how I negotiate and what I will tolerate from clients, but 
also learned that sometimes if you do cut someone a deal [within reason 
of course!], they'll never forget it and will be invaluable allies in 
the future.

Kristina


From zippy1981 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 14:43:15 2011
From: zippy1981 at gmail.com (Justin Dearing)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:43:15 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <6F97E273-3D4D-4ACD-97C8-2D710A033049@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.13842.1301762807.7830.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
	<6F97E273-3D4D-4ACD-97C8-2D710A033049@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimRHVyKGrDJFcogNHkcVDUHm2GQqpTTFecua=yv@mail.gmail.com>

Also, how steady/big is the contract?

My last contract was a 30 day contract at dayrate that was less than 1/9th
the rate I charge for adhoc consulting. and more than the previous contract
position. However, it was a 30 day contract that lasted almost a year, and
my headhunter paid me with a W-2. Therefore, my biggest concern was
compensating for a lack of benefits compared with the salary.

BTW, I was told dayrate was based on a 9 hour day. It was a new  concept to
me, but it worked out well.

On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Donna Marie Vincent <
donnamarievincent at yahoo.com> wrote:

> If you're talking about a fulltime job you  can't compare that because your
> employer is paying half your s/s plus other benefits and you get paid for
> nonbillable time. I don't know any consultant in the NYC area who is billing
> less than $75/hr
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 2, 2011, at 12:46 PM, talk-request at lists.nyphp.org wrote:
>
> > Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 14:50:43 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 14:50:43 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <6F97E273-3D4D-4ACD-97C8-2D710A033049@yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.13842.1301762807.7830.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
	<6F97E273-3D4D-4ACD-97C8-2D710A033049@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4D977003.40305@kacomputerconsulting.com>

The higher the bill rate, the less hours you can bill, the less clients 
you will have, and the harder you will work for that same amount.  You 
will spend more than 1/2 of your time on marketing because you will be 
competing for a bite of a very small pie.

My phone is ringing off the hook and I can pick & choose what I want to 
work on.  So for me, and for my clients, this rate works.  I know if 
they could afford to pay me $3,000 a week instead of $2,000, they 
would.  But they really cannot afford it in most cases.  I deal with the 
small biz market primarily.

And again, the tax burden on a W2 employee is MUCH GREATER since you 
cannot deduct transportation, meals, office space, utilities, etc etc etc.
You pay taxes on the entirety of what you make.
As a self employed person, after all legal deductions are figured and 
accounted for, the tax burden is truly negligible if you know your tax 
rules.  AND I can take a month off whenever I choose!  Can't beat that.

Kristina


On 4/2/2011 2:25 PM, Donna Marie Vincent wrote:
> If you're talking about a fulltime job you  can't compare that because your employer is paying half your s/s plus other benefits and you get paid for nonbillable time. I don't know any consultant in the NYC area who is billing less than $75/hr
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 2, 2011, at 12:46 PM, talk-request at lists.nyphp.org wrote:
>
>> Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



From ereyes at totalcreations.com  Sat Apr  2 15:09:29 2011
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com (Edgar Reyes)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 15:09:29 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D975346.7020807@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<8021499067154FD7A0A795D9D3D679E0@MainTop>
	<4D975346.7020807@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <EB8F9D58669542D2ABC10616512D6A79@MainTop>

Kristina,
Ok now I get where you are coming from, see we where taking about 2
different situations, I very rarely take jobs that require me to go into the
clients office for X amount of time every day. 

I like to take projects I will give the client an estimated date of
completion and update him accordingly. So if it takes me 3 weeks or 3 months
the quote that I gave him stands unless he asks for extra features. I live
in Long Island so for me to go into the city for less then $75 per hour is
not really worth it cause I have to account for the 2.5 hour commute time
every day that's over 12 per week that I'm loosing, I know a lot of people
don't count their commute time cause that's just part of the job, but I take
everything into account when taking a job, hey that time is time that I
could be spending with my family and that's worth a lot more then $75 per
hour.

But again to each its own, it seems like you are doing well and are happy
with your rates and many others here who are charging more are doing well
and happy also. So I guess the lesson here is that there is a market for
every one. One thing though, one reason why I don't charge less and always
try to stand my ground is because some time back when I used to charged less
some companies actually wouldn't hire me because they thought that since I
wasn't charging them as much I probably was not as good!! Go figure, ones I
raised my rates I got more jobs :) people are strange.

ER


-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of Kristina Anderson
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 12:48 PM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?

Ed,

The reality of this economy is that small & medium sized businesses ARE 
NOT GOING TO PAY more than $2,000 a week for an engineer.

If you disagree, I mean, that's great, I'd love to make twice that but 
the reality is that if I ask for $4,000 a week, I'm going to be looking 
for work for A LONG TIME.  And $2,000 in US cash is worth far more than 
$4,000 in my fantasy world of what I'd "like to earn".

I'll even take $6,500 a month on occasion if the project is for someone 
I want to help.  I think that it's great to aim higher, I am all in 
favor of making the bucks, but in this economy $8,000 a month is A LOT 
in these company's minds.

I agree if someone is getting jerked around and asked for "small 
updates" (which I don't waste time with, I take on larger projects in 
the area of $5,000 + only), then yeah.  But the reality is, $8,000 a 
month is what people earn.   This is provable, this is reality, and 
fantasizing about making what lawyers make isn't going to change that 
reality.

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 12:35 PM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
> Hi Kristina,
>
> No, no assumptions, I sure you are a good programmer, but every one I
speak
> to that are PHP programmers specially with as much experience as you have
> are charging a lot more then $50 an hour lol.. Don't you think that after
13
> years you have earned a raise?
>
> Than again I really charge more based on a project not so much per hour,
but
> when I do have to come back for what ever time to fix things or small
> updates my rates start at $75 per hour. Heck if the geeksquad can charge
> 69.99 to set up a pc and $49.99 to set up an email account why would I
> charge less than that lol .
>
> Bottom line whether is selling your services or anything else it's only
> worth as much as people are willing to pay for it. but in my opinion you
> should not short change your worth, like I tell my soon to be clients and
my
> current clients, I may not be the least expensive but you get what you pay
> for, and I can show clients how a lot of the work that I've have done has
> paid for it self 10 fold if not more, so it's worth the investment and
some
> of them don't hire me at that time but do call me back to fix the mess
some
> one else makes and then I get to charge them more cause now I have to
spend
> time figuring out the mess that some one else made.
>
> ER
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org]
On
> Behalf Of Kristina Anderson
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 12:20 PM
> To: NYPHP Talk
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
>
> Ed,
>
> I've been a programmer in NYC for almost 13 years (maybe you assumed
> otherwise because of my gender), I started out in 1998 making $50 an
> hour, and I'm still making $50 an hour, and everyone else I know who is
> a PHP programmer in NYC is making between $45-55 an hour as well (over
> 20 other people that I personally know and have worked with).
>
> It's great to talk about what "should be" or what "could be" but the
> reality is, $50 an hour.
>
> Kristina
>
> On 4/2/2011 11:20 AM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
>> I think we are talking about 2 different things here, one is programming
> and
>> the other is designing, Krista programmers in NYC make a lot more then
$50
>> per hour, depending on your skill set and what language you program in.
> For
>> design work yes $50 per hour is about right for simple design work and
> even
>> that is in the lower end, and that can vary depending on the sort of
> design,
>> if it involves some sort of specialize CSS and or flash etc. then it goes
>> up.
>>
>> ER
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation



From matt at atopia.net  Sat Apr  2 15:21:17 2011
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 19:21:17 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D974E40.8040606@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop><4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com><4D974E40.8040606@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <1006454232-1301772078-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-258896978-@bda205.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

My comments...

I know programmers in NYC (straight up php developers) who make anywhere between about $22/hr (junior) to about $66/hr (senior). 

However, any NYC developer I know who also has systems/DBA skills (even slight) regularly pulls in at least $70/hr, rarely less. 

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Kristina Anderson <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:26:40 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Reply-To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?

BTW even a cursory search on Dice.com or a talk with any reputable 
Technical Recruitment professional will show you that the average 
full-time salary for a programmer, of any type, in NYC, is about 90K a year.

This calculates out to, yep, about $50 an hour...including the cost of 
benefits, and assuming the full-timers have a workweek closer to 50 
hours per week (which most do).

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 12:20 PM, Kristina Anderson wrote:
> Ed,
>
> I've been a programmer in NYC for almost 13 years (maybe you assumed 
> otherwise because of my gender), I started out in 1998 making $50 an 
> hour, and I'm still making $50 an hour, and everyone else I know who 
> is a PHP programmer in NYC is making between $45-55 an hour as well 
> (over 20 other people that I personally know and have worked with).
>
> It's great to talk about what "should be" or what "could be" but the 
> reality is, $50 an hour.
>
> Kristina
>
> On 4/2/2011 11:20 AM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
>> I think we are talking about 2 different things here, one is 
>> programming and
>> the other is designing, Krista programmers in NYC make a lot more 
>> then $50
>> per hour, depending on your skill set and what language you program 
>> in. For
>> design work yes $50 per hour is about right for simple design work 
>> and even
>> that is in the lower end, and that can vary depending on the sort of 
>> design,
>> if it involves some sort of specialize CSS and or flash etc. then it 
>> goes
>> up.
>>
>> ER
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 15:21:56 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 15:21:56 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <EB8F9D58669542D2ABC10616512D6A79@MainTop>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<8021499067154FD7A0A795D9D3D679E0@MainTop>	<4D975346.7020807@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<EB8F9D58669542D2ABC10616512D6A79@MainTop>
Message-ID: <4D977754.4030500@kacomputerconsulting.com>

Ed,

More than 90% of what I do is from my office here in my apartment, 
although on rare occasion I will work onsite if requested and if in the 
mood to get out a bit.
Gives me an excuse to wear my fancy threads, right?

My clients are small businesses and if they could afford to pay me 
$3,000 a week, I know most of them would gladly do so.  But in this 
economy, most of them scrape to come up with $2,000 a week.  I am deeply 
suspicious of consultants who claim to bill out over $12,000 a month 
since I have been around and know the deal...

$100 an hour is great but in many cases, you're not even approaching 40 
hours or even 20 hours a week in billings.  Any programmer should be 
good enough with math to see that consistent billing of 40 hours per 
week and less time spent on marketing is the key to greater monthly income.

Kristina


On 4/2/2011 3:09 PM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
> Kristina,
> Ok now I get where you are coming from, see we where taking about 2
> different situations, I very rarely take jobs that require me to go into the
> clients office for X amount of time every day.
>
> I like to take projects I will give the client an estimated date of
> completion and update him accordingly. So if it takes me 3 weeks or 3 months
> the quote that I gave him stands unless he asks for extra features. I live
> in Long Island so for me to go into the city for less then $75 per hour is
> not really worth it cause I have to account for the 2.5 hour commute time
> every day that's over 12 per week that I'm loosing, I know a lot of people
> don't count their commute time cause that's just part of the job, but I take
> everything into account when taking a job, hey that time is time that I
> could be spending with my family and that's worth a lot more then $75 per
> hour.
>
> But again to each its own, it seems like you are doing well and are happy
> with your rates and many others here who are charging more are doing well
> and happy also. So I guess the lesson here is that there is a market for
> every one. One thing though, one reason why I don't charge less and always
> try to stand my ground is because some time back when I used to charged less
> some companies actually wouldn't hire me because they thought that since I
> wasn't charging them as much I probably was not as good!! Go figure, ones I
> raised my rates I got more jobs :) people are strange.
>
> ER



From mmwaldman at nyc.rr.com  Sat Apr  2 15:32:18 2011
From: mmwaldman at nyc.rr.com (Michele Waldman)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 15:32:18 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com><4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>

In '99, I was making $70-85/hr as an Oracle/C Programmer.

The interesting thing is how much more you have to know to be a web 
developer, especially if you work on the front end and the backend.

Know more, less money.

Michele

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 12:20 PM
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?

> Ed,
>
> I've been a programmer in NYC for almost 13 years (maybe you assumed 
> otherwise because of my gender), I started out in 1998 making $50 an hour, 
> and I'm still making $50 an hour, and everyone else I know who is a PHP 
> programmer in NYC is making between $45-55 an hour as well (over 20 other 
> people that I personally know and have worked with).
>
> It's great to talk about what "should be" or what "could be" but the 
> reality is, $50 an hour.
>
> Kristina
>
> On 4/2/2011 11:20 AM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
>> I think we are talking about 2 different things here, one is programming 
>> and
>> the other is designing, Krista programmers in NYC make a lot more then 
>> $50
>> per hour, depending on your skill set and what language you program in. 
>> For
>> design work yes $50 per hour is about right for simple design work and 
>> even
>> that is in the lower end, and that can vary depending on the sort of 
>> design,
>> if it involves some sort of specialize CSS and or flash etc. then it goes
>> up.
>>
>> ER
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
> 



From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sat Apr  2 15:41:59 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 15:41:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com><4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>
Message-ID: <4D977C07.5030008@kacomputerconsulting.com>

In 1999 I knew basically not a whole lot, I was a green a** newbie with 
some Javascript skills and a liberal arts degree, and I pulled 
$50/hr....true story! LOL.

Know more, less money, you got it!

Kristina

On 4/2/2011 3:32 PM, Michele Waldman wrote:
> In '99, I was making $70-85/hr as an Oracle/C Programmer.
>
> The interesting thing is how much more you have to know to be a web 
> developer, especially if you work on the front end and the backend.
>
> Know more, less money.
>
> Michele
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 12:20 PM
> To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
>
>> Ed,
>>
>> I've been a programmer in NYC for almost 13 years (maybe you assumed 
>> otherwise because of my gender), I started out in 1998 making $50 an 
>> hour, and I'm still making $50 an hour, and everyone else I know who 
>> is a PHP programmer in NYC is making between $45-55 an hour as well 
>> (over 20 other people that I personally know and have worked with).
>>
>> It's great to talk about what "should be" or what "could be" but the 
>> reality is, $50 an hour.
>>
>> Kristina
>>
>> On 4/2/2011 11:20 AM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
>>> I think we are talking about 2 different things here, one is 
>>> programming and
>>> the other is designing, Krista programmers in NYC make a lot more 
>>> then $50
>>> per hour, depending on your skill set and what language you program 
>>> in. For
>>> design work yes $50 per hour is about right for simple design work 
>>> and even
>>> that is in the lower end, and that can vary depending on the sort of 
>>> design,
>>> if it involves some sort of specialize CSS and or flash etc. then it 
>>> goes
>>> up.
>>>
>>> ER
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>




From papillion at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 15:55:57 2011
From: papillion at gmail.com (Anthony Papillion)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:55:57 -0500
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Pricing a PHP product
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=Y=h7guyXg+881+9cU-KqvigXrjA@mail.gmail.com>

So since the topic of what to charge per hour seems to be being
vigoriously discussed, I thought I'd throw something out there that's
bugged me for a while.

How to price a PHP product.

I'm starting my third PHP product (an appointment reminder for a
software system I wrote) and I'm having a lot of problems coming up
with a price. I don't want to set it too low, like I seem to have done
with my rates, but I don't want to over price it either.

The system is straight PHP, JavaScript, JQuery, and HTML, so it's not
anything terribly complex but it does provider a nice extension to the
existing software.

What is the best way to price such software?

Thanks!
Anthony

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Anthony Papillion
Lead Developer / Owner
Get real about your software/web development and IT Services
(918) 919-4624

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/cajuntechie
My Blog:   http://www.cajuntechie.com


From ramons at gmx.net  Sat Apr  2 18:59:10 2011
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 18:59:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com><4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>
Message-ID: <4D97AA3E.8040704@gmx.net>

On 4/2/2011 3:32 PM, Michele Waldman wrote:
> In '99, I was making $70-85/hr as an Oracle/C Programmer.

Interesting discussion, but what baffles me beyond repair is how much more 
developers are paid compared to QA or support staff. The difficulty of work is 
about the same, although for a support job I think it is even higher (think 
about it, the supporters have to defend what the developers goofed up). The 
skill set is somewhat different, but thinking about what I get as a veteran QA 
Analyst and the hourly rates you are discussing makes me just wanna cry. OK, 
in all fairness, I'm not working in City, but upstate. Still, I think that if 
you can steadily land jobs that pay 50$ an hour you are doing quite well.

David


From frankcefalu at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 19:07:15 2011
From: frankcefalu at gmail.com (Frank Cefalu)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 19:07:15 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikwQog9z6q9EDE+N38uZgBjXj9+eAq+-7fxa1iU@mail.gmail.com>

Been programming in nyc for 10 years now.

The average rate for senior PHP development is 50-100 an hour. I've been to
a few receiving rates of 75 an hour
On Apr 2, 2011 12:20 PM, "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
wrote:
> Ed,
>
> I've been a programmer in NYC for almost 13 years (maybe you assumed
> otherwise because of my gender), I started out in 1998 making $50 an
> hour, and I'm still making $50 an hour, and everyone else I know who is
> a PHP programmer in NYC is making between $45-55 an hour as well (over
> 20 other people that I personally know and have worked with).
>
> It's great to talk about what "should be" or what "could be" but the
> reality is, $50 an hour.
>
> Kristina
>
> On 4/2/2011 11:20 AM, Edgar Reyes wrote:
>> I think we are talking about 2 different things here, one is programming
and
>> the other is designing, Krista programmers in NYC make a lot more then
$50
>> per hour, depending on your skill set and what language you program in.
For
>> design work yes $50 per hour is about right for simple design work and
even
>> that is in the lower end, and that can vary depending on the sort of
design,
>> if it involves some sort of specialize CSS and or flash etc. then it goes
>> up.
>>
>> ER
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
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From frankcefalu at gmail.com  Sat Apr  2 20:22:07 2011
From: frankcefalu at gmail.com (Frank Cefalu)
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 20:22:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D97AA3E.8040704@gmx.net>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>
	<4D97AA3E.8040704@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=RKBaHjVeC923E01uLD=hAW5vzt7q2osvW2SPe@mail.gmail.com>

You are wrong. The work of a qa analyst is alot simpler. You don't need to
do any architecture based on traffic retention, judge framework usage etc.
On Apr 2, 2011 6:59 PM, "David Krings" <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:
> On 4/2/2011 3:32 PM, Michele Waldman wrote:
>> In '99, I was making $70-85/hr as an Oracle/C Programmer.
>
> Interesting discussion, but what baffles me beyond repair is how much more

> developers are paid compared to QA or support staff. The difficulty of
work is
> about the same, although for a support job I think it is even higher
(think
> about it, the supporters have to defend what the developers goofed up).
The
> skill set is somewhat different, but thinking about what I get as a
veteran QA
> Analyst and the hourly rates you are discussing makes me just wanna cry.
OK,
> in all fairness, I'm not working in City, but upstate. Still, I think that
if
> you can steadily land jobs that pay 50$ an hour you are doing quite well.
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
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From ramons at gmx.net  Sat Apr  2 21:21:58 2011
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 21:21:58 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=RKBaHjVeC923E01uLD=hAW5vzt7q2osvW2SPe@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>	<4D97AA3E.8040704@gmx.net>
	<AANLkTi=RKBaHjVeC923E01uLD=hAW5vzt7q2osvW2SPe@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D97CBB6.7040708@gmx.net>

On 4/2/2011 8:22 PM, Frank Cefalu wrote:
> You are wrong. The work of a qa analyst is alot simpler. You don't need to do
> any architecture based on traffic retention, judge framework usage etc.

Not in my QA world....

David


From frankcefalu at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 02:01:50 2011
From: frankcefalu at gmail.com (Frank Cefalu)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 02:01:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D97CBB6.7040708@gmx.net>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>
	<4D97AA3E.8040704@gmx.net>
	<AANLkTi=RKBaHjVeC923E01uLD=hAW5vzt7q2osvW2SPe@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D97CBB6.7040708@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=GixWgom6qBr+eP8XuTNUD_4bO--uM2fJL5g+v@mail.gmail.com>

Not saying your tasks are easier or less stressful.

But, I guess you can look at senior devs/leads as the architect of the
house, and your the house inspector.

Get what I mean? Not saying one out weighs the other, just one is more
involved in architecture, and the other is involved in making sure it meets
city requirements aka business reqs.


----
*Frank Cefalu*



On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 9:21 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net> wrote:

> On 4/2/2011 8:22 PM, Frank Cefalu wrote:
>
>> You are wrong. The work of a qa analyst is alot simpler. You don't need to
>> do
>> any architecture based on traffic retention, judge framework usage etc.
>>
>
> Not in my QA world....
>
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sun Apr  3 07:10:42 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 07:10:42 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=GixWgom6qBr+eP8XuTNUD_4bO--uM2fJL5g+v@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>	<CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>	<4D97AA3E.8040704@gmx.net>	<AANLkTi=RKBaHjVeC923E01uLD=hAW5vzt7q2osvW2SPe@mail.gmail.com>	<4D97CBB6.7040708@gmx.net>
	<AANLkTi=GixWgom6qBr+eP8XuTNUD_4bO--uM2fJL5g+v@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D9855B2.1050308@kacomputerconsulting.com>

The decision on what to build comes down from on high where some confab 
of management pinheads make decisions based on "wow this will make us 
rich if we hire some cheap labor to build it for us" and "my Uncle Frank 
told me PHP was the way to go while we were golfing last week".

The tech lead then assembles a team of inexperienced, cheap programmers 
(because management has decided the budget, too) who crank out a 
horrifying batch of really awful code that kind of looks like it might 
do what management requested be built, with the tech lead taking all the 
credit for anything good that might happen along the way, and blaming 
the programmers he personally likes the least for whatever bad things 
inevitably occur.

This poo poo stew then gets dumped into the lap of our hapless "QA 
Analyst" who is expected to work a miracle on par with parting the Red 
Sea by turning it into Tasty Texas Chili for distribution to the masses.

Kristina




\\On 4/3/2011 2:01 AM, Frank Cefalu wrote:
> Not saying your tasks are easier or less stressful.
>
> But, I guess you can look at senior devs/leads as the architect of the 
> house, and your the house inspector.
>
> Get what I mean? Not saying one out weighs the other, just one is more 
> involved in architecture, and the other is involved in making sure it 
> meets city requirements aka business reqs.
>
>
> ----
> *Frank Cefalu*
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 9:21 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net 
> <mailto:ramons at gmx.net>> wrote:
>
>     On 4/2/2011 8:22 PM, Frank Cefalu wrote:
>
>         You are wrong. The work of a qa analyst is alot simpler. You
>         don't need to do
>         any architecture based on traffic retention, judge framework
>         usage etc.
>
>
>     Not in my QA world....
>
>
>     David
>     _______________________________________________
>     New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>     http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>     http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

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From dorgan at donaldorgan.com  Sun Apr  3 10:01:19 2011
From: dorgan at donaldorgan.com (Donald J. Organ IV)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 10:01:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D9855B2.1050308@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <9478430.4.1301839279110.JavaMail.root@mail.twoguyshosting.com>

So what your saying is after your QS person finds issues, they go into the code/design and fix it themselves?? 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com> 
To: "NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org> 
Sent: Sunday, April 3, 2011 7:10:42 AM 
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth? 

The decision on what to build comes down from on high where some confab of management pinheads make decisions based on "wow this will make us rich if we hire some cheap labor to build it for us" and "my Uncle Frank told me PHP was the way to go while we were golfing last week". 

The tech lead then assembles a team of inexperienced, cheap programmers (because management has decided the budget, too) who crank out a horrifying batch of really awful code that kind of looks like it might do what management requested be built, with the tech lead taking all the credit for anything good that might happen along the way, and blaming the programmers he personally likes the least for whatever bad things inevitably occur. 

This poo poo stew then gets dumped into the lap of our hapless "QA Analyst" who is expected to work a miracle on par with parting the Red Sea by turning it into Tasty Texas Chili for distribution to the masses. 

Kristina 




\\On 4/3/2011 2:01 AM, Frank Cefalu wrote: 

Not saying your tasks are easier or less stressful. 


But, I guess you can look at senior devs/leads as the architect of the house, and your the house inspector. 


Get what I mean? Not saying one out weighs the other, just one is more involved in architecture, and the other is involved in making sure it meets city requirements aka business reqs. 



---- Frank Cefalu 


On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 9:21 PM, David Krings < ramons at gmx.net > wrote: 



On 4/2/2011 8:22 PM, Frank Cefalu wrote: 


You are wrong. The work of a qa analyst is alot simpler. You don't need to do 
any architecture based on traffic retention, judge framework usage etc. 

Not in my QA world.... 



David 
_______________________________________________ 
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List 
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk 

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation 

_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation 

_______________________________________________ 
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List 
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk 

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation 
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From frankcefalu at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 10:17:50 2011
From: frankcefalu at gmail.com (Frank Cefalu)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 10:17:50 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D9855B2.1050308@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>
	<4D97AA3E.8040704@gmx.net>
	<AANLkTi=RKBaHjVeC923E01uLD=hAW5vzt7q2osvW2SPe@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D97CBB6.7040708@gmx.net>
	<AANLkTi=GixWgom6qBr+eP8XuTNUD_4bO--uM2fJL5g+v@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D9855B2.1050308@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTik88iv8FAPZ90AQdjqH21A9HnNHCg@mail.gmail.com>

A lead is a mentor. It is unfortunate if you work in a place where the lead
blames others.

I never did such a thing and always gave credit.

You as a lead decide who is on your team and fight for that, for the same
crappy code you mention I always hire mid to senior level otherwise I am
going to spend more time hot fixing mistakes and training than getting the
project done correctly.

Not going to address the PHP comment ;)
On Apr 3, 2011 7:11 AM, "Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
wrote:
> The decision on what to build comes down from on high where some confab
> of management pinheads make decisions based on "wow this will make us
> rich if we hire some cheap labor to build it for us" and "my Uncle Frank
> told me PHP was the way to go while we were golfing last week".
>
> The tech lead then assembles a team of inexperienced, cheap programmers
> (because management has decided the budget, too) who crank out a
> horrifying batch of really awful code that kind of looks like it might
> do what management requested be built, with the tech lead taking all the
> credit for anything good that might happen along the way, and blaming
> the programmers he personally likes the least for whatever bad things
> inevitably occur.
>
> This poo poo stew then gets dumped into the lap of our hapless "QA
> Analyst" who is expected to work a miracle on par with parting the Red
> Sea by turning it into Tasty Texas Chili for distribution to the masses.
>
> Kristina
>
>
>
>
> \\On 4/3/2011 2:01 AM, Frank Cefalu wrote:
>> Not saying your tasks are easier or less stressful.
>>
>> But, I guess you can look at senior devs/leads as the architect of the
>> house, and your the house inspector.
>>
>> Get what I mean? Not saying one out weighs the other, just one is more
>> involved in architecture, and the other is involved in making sure it
>> meets city requirements aka business reqs.
>>
>>
>> ----
>> *Frank Cefalu*
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 9:21 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net
>> <mailto:ramons at gmx.net>> wrote:
>>
>> On 4/2/2011 8:22 PM, Frank Cefalu wrote:
>>
>> You are wrong. The work of a qa analyst is alot simpler. You
>> don't need to do
>> any architecture based on traffic retention, judge framework
>> usage etc.
>>
>>
>> Not in my QA world....
>>
>>
>> David
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
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From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Sun Apr  3 10:27:01 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 10:27:01 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <9478430.4.1301839279110.JavaMail.root@mail.twoguyshosting.com>
References: <9478430.4.1301839279110.JavaMail.root@mail.twoguyshosting.com>
Message-ID: <4D9883B5.3060103@kacomputerconsulting.com>

We'd have to ask David to clarify, but from what he's posted, his 
responsibilities seem to extend beyond just finding the issues, yes...David?



On 4/3/2011 10:01 AM, Donald J. Organ IV wrote:
> So what your saying is after your QS person finds issues, they go into 
> the code/design and fix it themselves??
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From: *"Kristina Anderson" <ka at kacomputerconsulting.com>
> *To: *"NYPHP Talk" <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
> *Sent: *Sunday, April 3, 2011 7:10:42 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
>
> The decision on what to build comes down from on high where some 
> confab of management pinheads make decisions based on "wow this will 
> make us rich if we hire some cheap labor to build it for us" and "my 
> Uncle Frank told me PHP was the way to go while we were golfing last 
> week".
>
> The tech lead then assembles a team of inexperienced, cheap 
> programmers (because management has decided the budget, too) who crank 
> out a horrifying batch of really awful code that kind of looks like it 
> might do what management requested be built, with the tech lead taking 
> all the credit for anything good that might happen along the way, and 
> blaming the programmers he personally likes the least for whatever bad 
> things inevitably occur.
>
> This poo poo stew then gets dumped into the lap of our hapless "QA 
> Analyst" who is expected to work a miracle on par with parting the Red 
> Sea by turning it into Tasty Texas Chili for distribution to the masses.
>
> Kristina
>
>
>
>
> \\On 4/3/2011 2:01 AM, Frank Cefalu wrote:
>
>     Not saying your tasks are easier or less stressful.
>
>     But, I guess you can look at senior devs/leads as the architect of
>     the house, and your the house inspector.
>
>     Get what I mean? Not saying one out weighs the other, just one is
>     more involved in architecture, and the other is involved in making
>     sure it meets city requirements aka business reqs.
>
>
>     ----
>     *Frank Cefalu*
>
>
>
>     On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 9:21 PM, David Krings <ramons at gmx.net
>     <mailto:ramons at gmx.net>> wrote:
>
>         On 4/2/2011 8:22 PM, Frank Cefalu wrote:
>
>             You are wrong. The work of a qa analyst is alot simpler.
>             You don't need to do
>             any architecture based on traffic retention, judge
>             framework usage etc.
>
>
>         Not in my QA world....
>
>
>         David
>         _______________________________________________
>         New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>         http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>         http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>     http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>     http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation


-- 
Kristina Anderson
PHP/MySQL/LAMP/AJAX Systems Analyst / Programmer / Consultant
646 247 4987

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From tedd.sperling at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 10:38:07 2011
From: tedd.sperling at gmail.com (tedd)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 10:38:07 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D977754.4030500@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<8021499067154FD7A0A795D9D3D679E0@MainTop>
	<4D975346.7020807@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<EB8F9D58669542D2ABC10616512D6A79@MainTop>
	<4D977754.4030500@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <p06240801c9be2b6ed44b@[192.168.1.4]>

At 3:21 PM -0400 4/2/11, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>$100 an hour is great but in many cases, you're not even approaching 
>40 hours or even 20 hours a week in billings.  Any programmer should 
>be good enough with math to see that consistent billing of 40 hours 
>per week and less time spent on marketing is the key to greater 
>monthly income.
>
>Kristina

That's exactly right.

Most of my projects are done a "cost for project" basis.

Often I figure out how much time the project will take me and then I 
provide the client with a "project cost", which usually looks like a 
better deal for them because I *do* charge $100 per hour.

For example, I'm current working on a project that if I spent all my 
time (100%) working on it I probably could have it done in two weeks. 
That would be $8K at $100 per hour.

However, in this case (which is more often than not) I determined 
that the client can't be ready in that length of time -- they simply 
don't have the graphics, text, and money. So, I provide a quote 
saying I can finish the project within two months at cost of $10k. 
That gives them time to get things together and gives me room to fit 
their project in to my schedule.

If they come back and negotiate, then I have $2k of wiggle room. 
However most of the time, clients jump at the "project cost" for they 
feel that two months is much longer than 100 hours so they are 
getting something additional. Realize that often it perception and 
flexibility that you sell, not programming. In any event, the 
arrangement presents a win-win situation -- and that's what you want.

So, when the client has the money, I take 50% up-front and the 
remainder when the project is finished. It sounds reasonable to the 
client and works most of the time for me.

Now, what I *also* do in these cases is to stay with the client until 
they get what they want. This conduct will provide me with favor, 
which results in more work from both the client and their friends. 
Word of mouth means a lot!

Sometimes, this means spending up to 50% more time than expected 
without billing for extras. However, at some point, the client should 
come to a realization what the scope of the project was at the 
beginning and what it turned into. Most clients realize what "feature 
creep" is and you can come to a reasonable solution as to how to deal 
with it.

If you run into an unreasonable client (rare), then it's best to take 
whatever was outstanding and walk away -- don't do the court thing. 
As for an unreasonable example, I had one client who offered to pay 
me $50 *per week* until the project was finished as he kept adding 
things as if this project was a software buffet. I walked and left 
the remaining 50% payment plus the 150% effort on the table. In this 
case, I made $33 per hour on a failed project. Not good, but not so 
bad either.

The bottom line is to determine what the client wants and work their 
needs to your advantage. It may sound like you're taking advantage of 
them, but clients seldom understand and often underestimate what you 
do and that is taking advantage of you. In the end, work the system 
to provide quality service for reasonable pay.

Cheers,

tedd


-- 
-------
http://sperling.com/


From tedd.sperling at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 10:43:59 2011
From: tedd.sperling at gmail.com (tedd)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 10:43:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com><4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A
	14@MainTop>	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>
Message-ID: <p06240802c9be36e3838f@[192.168.1.4]>

At 3:32 PM -0400 4/2/11, Michele Waldman wrote:
>In '99, I was making $70-85/hr as an Oracle/C Programmer.
>
>The interesting thing is how much more you have to know to be a web 
>developer, especially if you work on the front end and the backend.
>
>Know more, less money.
>
>Michele


Know more, less money. <-- not necessarily.

"Knowing more" simply means "more opportunity".

I have had many clients who come to me wanting a simple billboard -- 
I can do that. I typically charge $1k for a three page web site and 
can create a decent looking one in a day. I'll do that as often as 
anyone wants.

I know people who charge considerably more and remarkably less. So, 
there's no "rule of thumb" -- so surmise the client, determine your 
own worth, and charge accordingly.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com/


From tedd.sperling at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 10:46:11 2011
From: tedd.sperling at gmail.com (tedd)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 10:46:11 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D97AA3E.8040704@gmx.net>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com><4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A
	14@MainTop>	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC> <4D97AA3E.8040704@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <p06240803c9be3851d96c@[192.168.1.4]>

At 6:59 PM -0400 4/2/11, David Krings wrote:
>On 4/2/2011 3:32 PM, Michele Waldman wrote:
>>In '99, I was making $70-85/hr as an Oracle/C Programmer.
>
>Interesting discussion, but what baffles me beyond repair is how 
>much more developers are paid compared to QA or support staff. The 
>difficulty of work is about the same, although for a support job I 
>think it is even higher (think about it, the supporters have to 
>defend what the developers goofed up). The skill set is somewhat 
>different, but thinking about what I get as a veteran QA Analyst and 
>the hourly rates you are discussing makes me just wanna cry. OK, in 
>all fairness, I'm not working in City, but upstate. Still, I think 
>that if you can steadily land jobs that pay 50$ an hour you are 
>doing quite well.
>
>David

Not meaning to degrade "Support", but those positions as usually the 
first step in IT -- are they not?

As such, it's like minimum wage with higher wages as they move up.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com/


From tedd.sperling at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 10:49:09 2011
From: tedd.sperling at gmail.com (tedd)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 10:49:09 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <4D9855B2.1050308@kacomputerconsulting.com>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<CF5511C084204A6699B8F001515E1CFA@michelePC>	<4D97AA3E.8040704@gmx.net>
	<AANLkTi=RKBaHjVeC923E01uLD=hAW5vzt7q2osvW2SPe@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D97CBB6.7040708@gmx.net>
	<AANLkTi=GixWgom6qBr+eP8XuTNUD_4bO--uM2fJL5g+v@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D9855B2.1050308@kacomputerconsulting.com>
Message-ID: <p06240804c9be38fc016c@[192.168.1.4]>

At 7:10 AM -0400 4/3/11, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>This poo poo stew then gets dumped into the lap of our hapless "QA 
>Analyst" who is expected to work a miracle on par with parting the 
>Red Sea by turning it into Tasty Texas Chili for distribution to the 
>masses.

Kristina:

"poo poo" -- this technical jargon is making my head hurt. :-)

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com/


From ramons at gmx.net  Sun Apr  3 11:01:03 2011
From: ramons at gmx.net (David Krings)
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 11:01:03 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <9478430.4.1301839279110.JavaMail.root@mail.twoguyshosting.com>
References: <9478430.4.1301839279110.JavaMail.root@mail.twoguyshosting.com>
Message-ID: <4D988BAF.4040908@gmx.net>

On 4/3/2011 10:01 AM, Donald J. Organ IV wrote:
> So what your saying is after your QS person finds issues, they go into the
> code/design and fix it themselves??

Been there, done that and was important, because shortly after the developers 
got laid off and knowing how to fix things was very helpful in supporting the 
product. But QA people must have sufficient development skills, at least 
enough to know when the developers are just being lazy. How many times have I 
heard "this will take three weeks" just to have it get done in half an hour 
after insisting on a fix (because I knew it wasn't rocket science to fix it). 
Or the whiny "this cannot be done in X" with X being any programming language 
used for a project. Of course it can be done! The dev was just too lazy to 
google for the code snippet or look at the other places in the app where the 
exact same functionality exists and works flawlessly. Many bright minds 
pointed out in the past that QA must own the design and requirements, because 
they are the ones who know best when it is stupid, won't work, or isn't worth 
the effort.

I'm not knocking the developers in general. Many I work and worked with have 
excellent skills and a superb understanding of the business, but - 
understandably so - are not keen on tedious work such as bug fixing, writing 
tech docs, or analyzing requirements. Some tend to code whatever they are 
asked to code, even if they know it is dumb. That is why smart businesses 
outsource coding work to Russia, Hungary or Bulgaria. Sure, the developers 
there are not as cheap as the ones in India, but they tend to ask the tough 
questions.

As for QA, QA is nothing more than a mirror developers have to look into.

David


From ereyes at totalcreations.com  Sun Apr  3 12:22:44 2011
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com (Edgar Reyes)
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 12:22:44 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
In-Reply-To: <p06240801c9be2b6ed44b@[192.168.1.4]>
References: <AFEB2508-471B-419F-A313-A7B2DD36633F@mac.com>
	<BANLkTimdA3Ahewr21m7_KFKVshto448fNA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4D96D2AD.9080806@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<4F067DF4272545C781C79E6013C17A14@MainTop>
	<4D974CBA.1010200@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<8021499067154FD7A0A795D9D3D679E0@MainTop>
	<4D975346.7020807@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<EB8F9D58669542D2ABC10616512D6A79@MainTop>
	<4D977754.4030500@kacomputerconsulting.com>
	<p06240801c9be2b6ed44b@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <72D41F3AC8924389A7BB70E29F077746@MainTop>

Ted you hit the nail on the head, that's pretty much exactly what I do.

ER
-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of tedd
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 10:38 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?

At 3:21 PM -0400 4/2/11, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>$100 an hour is great but in many cases, you're not even approaching 
>40 hours or even 20 hours a week in billings.  Any programmer should 
>be good enough with math to see that consistent billing of 40 hours 
>per week and less time spent on marketing is the key to greater 
>monthly income.
>
>Kristina

That's exactly right.

Most of my projects are done a "cost for project" basis.

Often I figure out how much time the project will take me and then I 
provide the client with a "project cost", which usually looks like a 
better deal for them because I *do* charge $100 per hour.

For example, I'm current working on a project that if I spent all my 
time (100%) working on it I probably could have it done in two weeks. 
That would be $8K at $100 per hour.

However, in this case (which is more often than not) I determined 
that the client can't be ready in that length of time -- they simply 
don't have the graphics, text, and money. So, I provide a quote 
saying I can finish the project within two months at cost of $10k. 
That gives them time to get things together and gives me room to fit 
their project in to my schedule.

If they come back and negotiate, then I have $2k of wiggle room. 
However most of the time, clients jump at the "project cost" for they 
feel that two months is much longer than 100 hours so they are 
getting something additional. Realize that often it perception and 
flexibility that you sell, not programming. In any event, the 
arrangement presents a win-win situation -- and that's what you want.

So, when the client has the money, I take 50% up-front and the 
remainder when the project is finished. It sounds reasonable to the 
client and works most of the time for me.

Now, what I *also* do in these cases is to stay with the client until 
they get what they want. This conduct will provide me with favor, 
which results in more work from both the client and their friends. 
Word of mouth means a lot!

Sometimes, this means spending up to 50% more time than expected 
without billing for extras. However, at some point, the client should 
come to a realization what the scope of the project was at the 
beginning and what it turned into. Most clients realize what "feature 
creep" is and you can come to a reasonable solution as to how to deal 
with it.

If you run into an unreasonable client (rare), then it's best to take 
whatever was outstanding and walk away -- don't do the court thing. 
As for an unreasonable example, I had one client who offered to pay 
me $50 *per week* until the project was finished as he kept adding 
things as if this project was a software buffet. I walked and left 
the remaining 50% payment plus the 150% effort on the table. In this 
case, I made $33 per hour on a failed project. Not good, but not so 
bad either.

The bottom line is to determine what the client wants and work their 
needs to your advantage. It may sound like you're taking advantage of 
them, but clients seldom understand and often underestimate what you 
do and that is taking advantage of you. In the end, work the system 
to provide quality service for reasonable pay.

Cheers,

tedd


-- 
-------
http://sperling.com/
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation



From ioplex at gmail.com  Sun Apr  3 23:30:01 2011
From: ioplex at gmail.com (Michael B Allen)
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 23:30:01 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Pricing a PHP product
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTi=Y=h7guyXg+881+9cU-KqvigXrjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=Y=h7guyXg+881+9cU-KqvigXrjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTikO=M=N287WaimsZ+5vG9oCYn_n-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Anthony Papillion <papillion at gmail.com> wrote:
> So since the topic of what to charge per hour seems to be being
> vigoriously discussed, I thought I'd throw something out there that's
> bugged me for a while.
>
> How to price a PHP product.
>
> I'm starting my third PHP product (an appointment reminder for a
> software system I wrote) and I'm having a lot of problems coming up
> with a price. I don't want to set it too low, like I seem to have done
> with my rates, but I don't want to over price it either.
>
> The system is straight PHP, JavaScript, JQuery, and HTML, so it's not
> anything terribly complex but it does provider a nice extension to the
> existing software.
>
> What is the best way to price such software?

Hi Anthony,

This is impossible to answer without intimate knowledge of the product
(and I apologize in advance for saying I don't care to know).

But if the M/O of the product is your typical business application
running as an HTTP service accessed by potentially many clients, then
the low end would probably be around $500 USD. That's about what it
takes to cover the costs of just helping people get setup and
collecting payment. If the product is a little side component like a
plugin for something then you might make it less but your margins in
this case are going to be poor. If you're app is something small and
you're thinking about a price like $100 or less, don't waste your
time. You need to write something that is useful enough to reach that
$500 range. If the application is really good and solves an important
business need, it is not unreasonable to charge $10,000 or an annual
fee of $1500 or so (but my guess is that you're not in this upper
range because it would probably be something that requires a
significant amount of man hours in which case you would have one
product and not three). Again it really depends a lot on what the
product does and how well it does it. If your software is really good
at something, customers will gladly buy it and they will not care much
if it's $200 or $500. Most developers / operators are not paying for
this stuff themselves. They're just doing an evaluation and submitting
a purchase order. You have to get to about $1000 before someone is
going to ask "why?".

And of course customers are going to expect a trial package that
doesn't cost anything. And customers demand options. You must have a
trial version that costs $0. And even after the trial expires I
recommend leaving that installation functional in some limited way. Of
course you can also have a version limited to a certain number of
users say for $300 as opposed to a "platinum" version for $600 or
whatever. I provide a lot of pricing options. I have a separate
"confidential" document for each product that I attach to every sales
email query which describes all of the pricing options about
discounts, the cost of versions limited to a certain number of users,
reseller conditions and so on. You can make a lot more money if the
options are structured well. For example, I have a simple formula (and
corresponding easy to read price table) that increases the discount as
the number of installations goes up. I think this scheme alone has
accounted for significantly larger invoice prices.

Another thing you can do is to make the debut price less than the
ultimate target price to leave room for increases. After a few months
when you have a better idea of who the customer's are, what they want
and the product has matured a little, you can decide to go higher
depending on the software's popularity, the economy, etc. Then when
you do a major revision 2 years later maybe you increase again.

Good luck,

Mike


From matt at atopia.net  Sun Apr  3 23:37:04 2011
From: matt at atopia.net (Matt Juszczak)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 03:37:04 +0000
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Pricing a PHP product
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikO=M=N287WaimsZ+5vG9oCYn_n-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTi=Y=h7guyXg+881+9cU-KqvigXrjA@mail.gmail.com><BANLkTikO=M=N287WaimsZ+5vG9oCYn_n-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <93404118-1301888225-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2062871935-@bda205.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

To sum up my response to Mike, this is why I'm a big believer in Software as a Service (SaaS). Built it once, sell to many. 


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael B Allen <ioplex at gmail.com>
Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 23:30:01 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Reply-To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Pricing a PHP product

On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Anthony Papillion <papillion at gmail.com> wrote:
> So since the topic of what to charge per hour seems to be being
> vigoriously discussed, I thought I'd throw something out there that's
> bugged me for a while.
>
> How to price a PHP product.
>
> I'm starting my third PHP product (an appointment reminder for a
> software system I wrote) and I'm having a lot of problems coming up
> with a price. I don't want to set it too low, like I seem to have done
> with my rates, but I don't want to over price it either.
>
> The system is straight PHP, JavaScript, JQuery, and HTML, so it's not
> anything terribly complex but it does provider a nice extension to the
> existing software.
>
> What is the best way to price such software?

Hi Anthony,

This is impossible to answer without intimate knowledge of the product
(and I apologize in advance for saying I don't care to know).

But if the M/O of the product is your typical business application
running as an HTTP service accessed by potentially many clients, then
the low end would probably be around $500 USD. That's about what it
takes to cover the costs of just helping people get setup and
collecting payment. If the product is a little side component like a
plugin for something then you might make it less but your margins in
this case are going to be poor. If you're app is something small and
you're thinking about a price like $100 or less, don't waste your
time. You need to write something that is useful enough to reach that
$500 range. If the application is really good and solves an important
business need, it is not unreasonable to charge $10,000 or an annual
fee of $1500 or so (but my guess is that you're not in this upper
range because it would probably be something that requires a
significant amount of man hours in which case you would have one
product and not three). Again it really depends a lot on what the
product does and how well it does it. If your software is really good
at something, customers will gladly buy it and they will not care much
if it's $200 or $500. Most developers / operators are not paying for
this stuff themselves. They're just doing an evaluation and submitting
a purchase order. You have to get to about $1000 before someone is
going to ask "why?".

And of course customers are going to expect a trial package that
doesn't cost anything. And customers demand options. You must have a
trial version that costs $0. And even after the trial expires I
recommend leaving that installation functional in some limited way. Of
course you can also have a version limited to a certain number of
users say for $300 as opposed to a "platinum" version for $600 or
whatever. I provide a lot of pricing options. I have a separate
"confidential" document for each product that I attach to every sales
email query which describes all of the pricing options about
discounts, the cost of versions limited to a certain number of users,
reseller conditions and so on. You can make a lot more money if the
options are structured well. For example, I have a simple formula (and
corresponding easy to read price table) that increases the discount as
the number of installations goes up. I think this scheme alone has
accounted for significantly larger invoice prices.

Another thing you can do is to make the debut price less than the
ultimate target price to leave room for increases. After a few months
when you have a better idea of who the customer's are, what they want
and the product has matured a little, you can decide to go higher
depending on the software's popularity, the economy, etc. Then when
you do a major revision 2 years later maybe you increase again.

Good luck,

Mike
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

From kahlil_haynes at hotmail.com  Mon Apr  4 13:55:14 2011
From: kahlil_haynes at hotmail.com (Kahlil Haynes)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:55:14 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Project pricing
In-Reply-To: <mailman.0.1301932801.30530.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
References: <mailman.0.1301932801.30530.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
Message-ID: <SNT126-W5BC2C6D81710B9B0F5AFE93A30@phx.gbl>


Aren't some of you breaking the law by suggesting actual amounts to charge for specific work?
 
From: talk-request at lists.nyphp.org
Subject: talk Digest, Vol 54, Issue 9
To: talk at lists.nyphp.org
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 12:00:01 -0400

Send talk mailing list submissions to
	talk at lists.nyphp.org
 
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
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than "Re: Contents of talk digest..."


--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: ereyes at totalcreations.com
To: talk at lists.nyphp.org
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 12:22:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?

Ted you hit the nail on the head, that's pretty much exactly what I do.
 
ER
-----Original Message-----
From: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org [mailto:talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org] On
Behalf Of tedd
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 10:38 AM
To: NYPHP Talk
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] How much is a site redesign worth?
 
At 3:21 PM -0400 4/2/11, Kristina Anderson wrote:
>$100 an hour is great but in many cases, you're not even approaching 
>40 hours or even 20 hours a week in billings.  Any programmer should 
>be good enough with math to see that consistent billing of 40 hours 
>per week and less time spent on marketing is the key to greater 
>monthly income.
>
>Kristina
 
That's exactly right.
 
Most of my projects are done a "cost for project" basis.
 
Often I figure out how much time the project will take me and then I 
provide the client with a "project cost", which usually looks like a 
better deal for them because I *do* charge $100 per hour.
 
For example, I'm current working on a project that if I spent all my 
time (100%) working on it I probably could have it done in two weeks. 
That would be $8K at $100 per hour.
 
However, in this case (which is more often than not) I determined 
that the client can't be ready in that length of time -- they simply 
don't have the graphics, text, and money. So, I provide a quote 
saying I can finish the project within two months at cost of $10k. 
That gives them time to get things together and gives me room to fit 
their project in to my schedule.
 
If they come back and negotiate, then I have $2k of wiggle room. 
However most of the time, clients jump at the "project cost" for they 
feel that two months is much longer than 100 hours so they are 
getting something additional. Realize that often it perception and 
flexibility that you sell, not programming. In any event, the 
arrangement presents a win-win situation -- and that's what you want.
 
So, when the client has the money, I take 50% up-front and the 
remainder when the project is finished. It sounds reasonable to the 
client and works most of the time for me.
 
Now, what I *also* do in these cases is to stay with the client until 
they get what they want. This conduct will provide me with favor, 
which results in more work from both the client and their friends. 
Word of mouth means a lot!
 
Sometimes, this means spending up to 50% more time than expected 
without billing for extras. However, at some point, the client should 
come to a realization what the scope of the project was at the 
beginning and what it turned into. Most clients realize what "feature 
creep" is and you can come to a reasonable solution as to how to deal 
with it.
 
If you run into an unreasonable client (rare), then it's best to take 
whatever was outstanding and walk away -- don't do the court thing. 
As for an unreasonable example, I had one client who offered to pay 
me $50 *per week* until the project was finished as he kept adding 
things as if this project was a software buffet. I walked and left 
the remaining 50% payment plus the 150% effort on the table. In this 
case, I made $33 per hour on a failed project. Not good, but not so 
bad either.
 
The bottom line is to determine what the client wants and work their 
needs to your advantage. It may sound like you're taking advantage of 
them, but clients seldom understand and often underestimate what you 
do and that is taking advantage of you. In the end, work the system 
to provide quality service for reasonable pay.
 
Cheers,
 
tedd
 
 
-- 
-------
http://sperling.com/
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
 
http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
 
 


--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: ioplex at gmail.com
To: talk at lists.nyphp.org
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 23:30:01 -0400
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Pricing a PHP product

On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Anthony Papillion <papillion at gmail.com> wrote:
> So since the topic of what to charge per hour seems to be being
> vigoriously discussed, I thought I'd throw something out there that's
> bugged me for a while.
>
> How to price a PHP product.
>
> I'm starting my third PHP product (an appointment reminder for a
> software system I wrote) and I'm having a lot of problems coming up
> with a price. I don't want to set it too low, like I seem to have done
> with my rates, but I don't want to over price it either.
>
> The system is straight PHP, JavaScript, JQuery, and HTML, so it's not
> anything terribly complex but it does provider a nice extension to the
> existing software.
>
> What is the best way to price such software?
 
Hi Anthony,
 
This is impossible to answer without intimate knowledge of the product
(and I apologize in advance for saying I don't care to know).
 
But if the M/O of the product is your typical business application
running as an HTTP service accessed by potentially many clients, then
the low end would probably be around $500 USD. That's about what it
takes to cover the costs of just helping people get setup and
collecting payment. If the product is a little side component like a
plugin for something then you might make it less but your margins in
this case are going to be poor. If you're app is something small and
you're thinking about a price like $100 or less, don't waste your
time. You need to write something that is useful enough to reach that
$500 range. If the application is really good and solves an important
business need, it is not unreasonable to charge $10,000 or an annual
fee of $1500 or so (but my guess is that you're not in this upper
range because it would probably be something that requires a
significant amount of man hours in which case you would have one
product and not three). Again it really depends a lot on what the
product does and how well it does it. If your software is really good
at something, customers will gladly buy it and they will not care much
if it's $200 or $500. Most developers / operators are not paying for
this stuff themselves. They're just doing an evaluation and submitting
a purchase order. You have to get to about $1000 before someone is
going to ask "why?".
 
And of course customers are going to expect a trial package that
doesn't cost anything. And customers demand options. You must have a
trial version that costs $0. And even after the trial expires I
recommend leaving that installation functional in some limited way. Of
course you can also have a version limited to a certain number of
users say for $300 as opposed to a "platinum" version for $600 or
whatever. I provide a lot of pricing options. I have a separate
"confidential" document for each product that I attach to every sales
email query which describes all of the pricing options about
discounts, the cost of versions limited to a certain number of users,
reseller conditions and so on. You can make a lot more money if the
options are structured well. For example, I have a simple formula (and
corresponding easy to read price table) that increases the discount as
the number of installations goes up. I think this scheme alone has
accounted for significantly larger invoice prices.
 
Another thing you can do is to make the debut price less than the
ultimate target price to leave room for increases. After a few months
when you have a better idea of who the customer's are, what they want
and the product has matured a little, you can decide to go higher
depending on the software's popularity, the economy, etc. Then when
you do a major revision 2 years later maybe you increase again.
 
Good luck,
 
Mike
 


--Forwarded Message Attachment--
From: matt at atopia.net
To: talk at lists.nyphp.org
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 03:37:04 +0000
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Pricing a PHP product

To sum up my response to Mike, this is why I'm a big believer in Software as a Service (SaaS). Built it once, sell to many. 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael B Allen <ioplex at gmail.com>
Sender: talk-bounces at lists.nyphp.org
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 23:30:01 
To: NYPHP Talk<talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Reply-To: NYPHP Talk <talk at lists.nyphp.org>
Subject: Re: [nycphp-talk] Pricing a PHP product
 
On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Anthony Papillion <papillion at gmail.com> wrote:
> So since the topic of what to charge per hour seems to be being
> vigoriously discussed, I thought I'd throw something out there that's
> bugged me for a while.
>
> How to price a PHP product.
>
> I'm starting my third PHP product (an appointment reminder for a
> software system I wrote) and I'm having a lot of problems coming up
> with a price. I don't want to set it too low, like I seem to have done
> with my rates, but I don't want to over price it either.
>
> The system is straight PHP, JavaScript, JQuery, and HTML, so it's not
> anything terribly complex but it does provider a nice extension to the
> existing software.
>
> What is the best way to price such software?
 
Hi Anthony,
 
This is impossible to answer without intimate knowledge of the product
(and I apologize in advance for saying I don't care to know).
 
But if the M/O of the product is your typical business application
running as an HTTP service accessed by potentially many clients, then
the low end would probably be around $500 USD. That's about what it
takes to cover the costs of just helping people get setup and
collecting payment. If the product is a little side component like a
plugin for something then you might make it less but your margins in
this case are going to be poor. If you're app is something small and
you're thinking about a price like $100 or less, don't waste your
time. You need to write something that is useful enough to reach that
$500 range. If the application is really good and solves an important
business need, it is not unreasonable to charge $10,000 or an annual
fee of $1500 or so (but my guess is that you're not in this upper
range because it would probably be something that requires a
significant amount of man hours in which case you would have one
product and not three). Again it really depends a lot on what the
product does and how well it does it. If your software is really good
at something, customers will gladly buy it and they will not care much
if it's $200 or $500. Most developers / operators are not paying for
this stuff themselves. They're just doing an evaluation and submitting
a purchase order. You have to get to about $1000 before someone is
going to ask "why?".
 
And of course customers are going to expect a trial package that
doesn't cost anything. And customers demand options. You must have a
trial version that costs $0. And even after the trial expires I
recommend leaving that installation functional in some limited way. Of
course you can also have a version limited to a certain number of
users say for $300 as opposed to a "platinum" version for $600 or
whatever. I provide a lot of pricing options. I have a separate
"confidential" document for each product that I attach to every sales
email query which describes all of the pricing options about
discounts, the cost of versions limited to a certain number of users,
reseller conditions and so on. You can make a lot more money if the
options are structured well. For example, I have a simple formula (and
corresponding easy to read price table) that increases the discount as
the number of installations goes up. I think this scheme alone has
accounted for significantly larger invoice prices.
 
Another thing you can do is to make the debut price less than the
ultimate target price to leave room for increases. After a few months
when you have a better idea of who the customer's are, what they want
and the product has matured a little, you can decide to go higher
depending on the software's popularity, the economy, etc. Then when
you do a major revision 2 years later maybe you increase again.
 
Good luck,
 
Mike
_______________________________________________
New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
 
http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
 		 	   		  
-------------- next part --------------
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From tedd.sperling at gmail.com  Mon Apr  4 14:19:16 2011
From: tedd.sperling at gmail.com (tedd)
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 14:19:16 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Project pricing
In-Reply-To: <SNT126-W5BC2C6D81710B9B0F5AFE93A30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.0.1301932801.30530.talk@lists.nyphp.org>
	<SNT126-W5BC2C6D81710B9B0F5AFE93A30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <p06240803c9bfb73848a1@[192.168.1.4]>

At 1:55 PM -0400 4/4/11, Kahlil Haynes wrote:
>Aren't some of you breaking the law by suggesting actual amounts to 
>charge for specific work?

Are you kidding me?

What you are referring to is "Price Fixing". That is when 
like-service companies (i.e., Airlines) call each other and determine 
a basic set rate instead of letting competition determine the price.

That is not what we are doing here! You are free to charge whatever 
you want -- I don't care. No one is agreeing to a set-price for 
set-labor PERIOD. I'll let the Congress do that in determining 
minimum wage -- they seem to break every other law.

Now, if the government wants to shut me up about what I charge, then 
they are free to try. But they have to figure out how to get around 
the first amendment, which supports my right to free speech. That's 
bigger than them.

As far as I'm concerned, the government can take a long walk off a 
short pier. Besides, regardless of who they think they are, they 
haven't done anything to promote business, nor do they know how. They 
are just a bunch of clowns throwing our money at their ideas.

Sorry for the rant. :-)

So, the answer is "No" we are not breaking any law taking about our 
experiences with clients.

Cheers,

tedd

-- 
-------
http://sperling.com/


From ka at kacomputerconsulting.com  Mon Apr  4 16:46:02 2011
From: ka at kacomputerconsulting.com (Kristina Anderson)
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 16:46:02 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Project pricing
In-Reply-To: <p06240803c9bfb73848a1@[192.168.1.4]>
References: <mailman.0.1301932801.30530.talk@lists.nyphp.org>	<SNT126-W5BC2C6D81710B9B0F5AFE93A30@phx.gbl>
	<p06240803c9bfb73848a1@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <4D9A2E0A.8080004@kacomputerconsulting.com>

On 4/4/2011 2:19 PM, tedd wrote:
> At 1:55 PM -0400 4/4/11, Kahlil Haynes wrote:
>> Aren't some of you breaking the law by suggesting actual amounts to 
>> charge for specific work?
>
> Are you kidding me?
>
> What you are referring to is "Price Fixing". That is when like-service 
> companies (i.e., Airlines) call each other and determine a basic set 
> rate instead of letting competition determine the price.
>
> That is not what we are doing here! You are free to charge whatever 
> you want -- I don't care. No one is agreeing to a set-price for 
> set-labor PERIOD. I'll let the Congress do that in determining minimum 
> wage -- they seem to break every other law.
>
> Now, if the government wants to shut me up about what I charge, then 
> they are free to try. But they have to figure out how to get around 
> the first amendment, which supports my right to free speech. That's 
> bigger than them.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, the government can take a long walk off a 
> short pier. Besides, regardless of who they think they are, they 
> haven't done anything to promote business, nor do they know how. They 
> are just a bunch of clowns throwing our money at their ideas.
>
> Sorry for the rant. :-)
>
> So, the answer is "No" we are not breaking any law taking about our 
> experiences with clients.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>
The fact that someone is even worried that what we do here is "breaking 
the law" is indicative of our giant leap as a society towards total 
fascism and paranoia.

When it becomes illegal to wear cheesy t-shirts with penguins on them, 
or eat cold pizza before noon...then we might have a problem here.

Kristina


From garyamort at gmail.com  Thu Apr  7 17:38:10 2011
From: garyamort at gmail.com (Gary Mort)
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 17:38:10 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Writing daemons in PHP
Message-ID: <4D9E2EC2.6090007@gmail.com>

Just wondering what, in general, others are using for writing daemons in
PHP.

Just code it directly using libevent...   or using a framework such as
phpdaemon, https://github.com/kakserpom/phpdaemon


For a first pass, I need to set up a more intelligent CPULimit app to
meet my specific goals.  Since all CPULimit basically does is check all
the PID's every 2ms and send out kill to processes with SIGSTOP and
SIGCONT - it seems simple to do the same with PHP.

Just loop through every 2 ms and when cpu usage is over the threshold,
do some quick calcs to determine how many microseconds before the
processes can be continued in order to drop the cpu usage below the
threshold and use libevent to set the callback time.

Granted, this is supposedly "better" to program in C rather than PHP,
but since I want to be able to do quick changes and keep the learning
curve small, I'd rather do it in PHP until everything has been tweaked
and perfected.  Then it's always an option to try using HipHop to
convert it.... or if it is running well and doing what is needed, leave
it be.


From anthony at tinkertownlabs.com  Fri Apr  8 20:34:18 2011
From: anthony at tinkertownlabs.com (Anthony Wlodarski)
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 20:34:18 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Writing daemons in PHP
In-Reply-To: <4D9E2EC2.6090007@gmail.com>
References: <4D9E2EC2.6090007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D9FA98A.5060805@tinkertownlabs.com>

I don't have knowledge or expertise in this area but I have written a 
few things in node.js and using upstart to control the jobs.  However 
doing my own research on how to write a daemon in PHP you should check 
out http://simas.posterous.com/writing-a-php-daemon-application.

-Anthony

On 04/07/2011 05:38 PM, Gary Mort wrote:
> Just wondering what, in general, others are using for writing daemons in
> PHP.
>
> Just code it directly using libevent...   or using a framework such as
> phpdaemon, https://github.com/kakserpom/phpdaemon
>
>
> For a first pass, I need to set up a more intelligent CPULimit app to
> meet my specific goals.  Since all CPULimit basically does is check all
> the PID's every 2ms and send out kill to processes with SIGSTOP and
> SIGCONT - it seems simple to do the same with PHP.
>
> Just loop through every 2 ms and when cpu usage is over the threshold,
> do some quick calcs to determine how many microseconds before the
> processes can be continued in order to drop the cpu usage below the
> threshold and use libevent to set the callback time.
>
> Granted, this is supposedly "better" to program in C rather than PHP,
> but since I want to be able to do quick changes and keep the learning
> curve small, I'd rather do it in PHP until everything has been tweaked
> and perfected.  Then it's always an option to try using HipHop to
> convert it.... or if it is running well and doing what is needed, leave
> it be.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation

-- 
Anthony Wlodarski
Lead Software Engineer
Get2Know.me
646 285 0500 x217



From rolan at omnistep.com  Sat Apr  9 17:44:55 2011
From: rolan at omnistep.com (Rolan Yang)
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 17:44:55 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Writing daemons in PHP
In-Reply-To: <4D9E2EC2.6090007@gmail.com>
References: <4D9E2EC2.6090007@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DA0D357.30508@omnistep.com>

I use this:

http://pear.php.net/package/System_Daemon

and it's worked flawlessly for the past 2 years.

~Rolan

On 4/7/2011 5:38 PM, Gary Mort wrote:
> Just wondering what, in general, others are using for writing daemons in
> PHP.
>
> Just code it directly using libevent...   or using a framework such as
> phpdaemon, https://github.com/kakserpom/phpdaemon
>
>
> For a first pass, I need to set up a more intelligent CPULimit app to
> meet my specific goals.  Since all CPULimit basically does is check all
> the PID's every 2ms and send out kill to processes with SIGSTOP and
> SIGCONT - it seems simple to do the same with PHP.
>
> Just loop through every 2 ms and when cpu usage is over the threshold,
> do some quick calcs to determine how many microseconds before the
> processes can be continued in order to drop the cpu usage below the
> threshold and use libevent to set the callback time.
>
> Granted, this is supposedly "better" to program in C rather than PHP,
> but since I want to be able to do quick changes and keep the learning
> curve small, I'd rather do it in PHP until everything has been tweaked
> and perfected.  Then it's always an option to try using HipHop to
> convert it.... or if it is running well and doing what is needed, leave
> it be.
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From guilhermeblanco at gmail.com  Sat Apr  9 19:25:19 2011
From: guilhermeblanco at gmail.com (guilhermeblanco at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 20:25:19 -0300
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Writing daemons in PHP
In-Reply-To: <4DA0D357.30508@omnistep.com>
References: <4D9E2EC2.6090007@gmail.com> <4DA0D357.30508@omnistep.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=b_8F=OorQX34ioVC9iAXXcO7ZhA@mail.gmail.com>

You should look at Gearman project for PHP. =)

http://php.net/manual/en/book.gearman.php
http://www.phpclasses.org/blog/post/108-Distributing-PHP-processing-with-Gearman.html
http://www.slideshare.net/felixdv/high-gear-php-with-gearman
http://weierophinney.net/matthew/archives/240-Writing-Gearman-Workers-in-PHP.html

Cheers,

On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Rolan Yang <rolan at omnistep.com> wrote:
> I use this:
>
> http://pear.php.net/package/System_Daemon
>
> and it's worked flawlessly for the past 2 years.
>
> ~Rolan
>
> On 4/7/2011 5:38 PM, Gary Mort wrote:
>>
>> Just wondering what, in general, others are using for writing daemons in
>> PHP.
>>
>> Just code it directly using libevent... ? or using a framework such as
>> phpdaemon, https://github.com/kakserpom/phpdaemon
>>
>>
>> For a first pass, I need to set up a more intelligent CPULimit app to
>> meet my specific goals. ?Since all CPULimit basically does is check all
>> the PID's every 2ms and send out kill to processes with SIGSTOP and
>> SIGCONT - it seems simple to do the same with PHP.
>>
>> Just loop through every 2 ms and when cpu usage is over the threshold,
>> do some quick calcs to determine how many microseconds before the
>> processes can be continued in order to drop the cpu usage below the
>> threshold and use libevent to set the callback time.
>>
>> Granted, this is supposedly "better" to program in C rather than PHP,
>> but since I want to be able to do quick changes and keep the learning
>> curve small, I'd rather do it in PHP until everything has been tweaked
>> and perfected. ?Then it's always an option to try using HipHop to
>> convert it.... or if it is running well and doing what is needed, leave
>> it be.
>> _______________________________________________
>> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
>> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>



-- 
Guilherme Blanco
Mobile: +55 (16) 9215-8480
MSN: guilhermeblanco at hotmail.com
S?o Paulo - SP/Brazil


From bulk at zaunere.com  Wed Apr 13 16:53:59 2011
From: bulk at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 16:53:59 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Call for Presentation
Message-ID: <00ac01cbfa1c$ea446410$becd2c30$@zaunere.com>

Hi all,

We're looking for a presentation for our General NYPHP Meeting (occurring
April 26th at 6:30pm at IBM).

NYPHP general meetings are:

-- technical, non-sales, developer orientated

-- review of interesting technology, techniques, etc.

Thanks,

H




From john at coggeshall.org  Wed Apr 13 17:23:56 2011
From: john at coggeshall.org (John Coggeshall)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:23:56 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Call for Presentation
In-Reply-To: <00ac01cbfa1c$ea446410$becd2c30$@zaunere.com>
References: <Acv6HJZCd8YnWKM9Sl6vDlD4CJr8+A==>
	<00ac01cbfa1c$ea446410$becd2c30$@zaunere.com>
Message-ID: <BANLkTimohKP9VA0+HnauUcWu+H43+Uiq4A@mail.gmail.com>

Hans:

I'll be in town the 26th, if you still are looking for a speaker...
I'm sure I can find something interesting to talk about :)

John

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Hans Zaunere <bulk at zaunere.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> We're looking for a presentation for our General NYPHP Meeting (occurring
> April 26th at 6:30pm at IBM).
>
> NYPHP general meetings are:
>
> -- technical, non-sales, developer orientated
>
> -- review of interesting technology, techniques, etc.
>
> Thanks,
>
> H
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New York PHP Users Group Community Talk Mailing List
> http://lists.nyphp.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
> http://www.nyphp.org/Show-Participation
>


From bulk at zaunere.com  Wed Apr 13 17:30:33 2011
From: bulk at zaunere.com (Hans Zaunere)
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:30:33 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Call for Presentation
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTimohKP9VA0+HnauUcWu+H43+Uiq4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Acv6HJZCd8YnWKM9Sl6vDlD4CJr8+A==>	<00ac01cbfa1c$ea446410$becd2c30$@zaunere.com>
	<BANLkTimohKP9VA0+HnauUcWu+H43+Uiq4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00cb01cbfa22$05ab1000$11013000$@zaunere.com>

> I'll be in town the 26th, if you still are looking for a speaker...
> I'm sure I can find something interesting to talk about :)

Sounds good to me - John, shoot me a blurb and optional bio to me off-list
and I'll get you locked in - first come first serve.

H





From nelly at cgim.com  Mon Apr 18 17:09:25 2011
From: nelly at cgim.com (Nelly Yusupova)
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:09:25 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] Looking for CakePHP developer
Message-ID: <C9D220C5.3B4CC%nelly@cgim.com>

Hello Everyone,

I am looking for a CakePHP developer for a short project which can turn into
something bigger.  If you qualify, please contact me at nelly at cgim.com with
the following info:

1. Your name & contact info
2. Your experience with cake php & projects that you?ve worked on
3. Links to your portfolio or projects that you worked on
4. Your rates

Thank you in advance!

Sincerely,
Nelly Yusupova
Digitalwoman.com
nelly at digitalwoman.com
917 603-9226 (phone)
URL: http://www.digitalwoman.com
Blog: http://www.webgrrls.com/blog/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/DigitalWoman

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From phprocks at dynamicink.com  Sat Apr 30 15:36:08 2011
From: phprocks at dynamicink.com (PHP Rocks)
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:36:08 -0400
Subject: [nycphp-talk] New York's first MySQL conference!
Message-ID: <BANLkTim2Y2ROULdJjWyC_1qUCbHf=fEx1Q@mail.gmail.com>

*Discover the Power of MySQL.* Percona Live MySQL Conference NYC is an
intensive one-day MySQL summit. Speakers include Percona consultants and
invited guests. The topics are 100% technical.

   - Learn what works from leading companies who use MySQL.
   - Hear how new solutions help companies drive down costs and improve
   performance.
   - Discuss your unique challenges and hear new possibilities.
   - Meet face-to-face in the "hallway track" and make lasting connections.
   - Engage the best and brightest in a lively job market.

*Register at http://percona-live-new-york-city.eventbrite.com*


At Percona Live, you'll benefit from the expertise of the most accomplished
system architects and developers in the business. You'll see how to tackle
your old problems in a whole new way.

Full schedule, information and list of speakers at the official event site
http://www.percona.com/live/nyc-2011

Sponsored by the Vork Enterprise Framework <http://www.vork.us/> (
http://www.Vork.us) for PHP and other exceptional organizations.
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